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Old 09-17-2007, 09:07 AM   #151
cross_trainer
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

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Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe
But that was a past prime, middleweight (not welter) Robinson, who was tired and pacing himself in a 15 rounder.

And LaMotta, well he is better than he looks, he has one of those styles, like Monzon. That jab is also faster than it looks, jerky 1940s film footage makes it seem slower. And he is a very tall 5"8.
Excuses aren't necessary here.

(By the way, what do you say about Monzon? Is he also a bum because he doesn't look great on film?)
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Old 09-17-2007, 09:10 AM   #152
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

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Originally Posted by cross_trainer
It's almost as if we're watching different films...

Footwork -- 5:07-5:03 (counting backwards due to the way Youtube videos upload) is a good demonstration as any. LaMotta punches, pivots around Ray, and continues punching, with good leverage on all of his blows. 5:27-5:25, or thereabouts, he does a forward skip that is fairly standard in boxing today. He makes pretty good use of these skip-steps to maintain distance and avoid counterpunches (5:19-5:17 is a good example. There's also one before that.). He's in pretty good position to crouch and recover, the best example ending at 4:51.

No Guard -- His guard isn't up when they're out of range, if that's what you mean (it would be pretty useless there anyway). When in range, his right hand is usually at his chin and his left is drawn forward and back rather than dropped after the jab. It's low, but the shoulder is drawn up to compensate, much as Toney's. He uses it too. I can cite specific examples if you like.

Absurdly Wide Open -- Give examples. This is rather general.

Incorrect Sloppy Arm Punching -- He throws his left hooks similarly to Frazier (see "Boxing like the pros" and Dempsey's "Championship Fighting") rather than the modern method ("USA Boxing" manual). The back foot is off the ground and pushes to rotate the body rather than sunk to gain backward leverage. It's a matter of preference, and helps his forward momentum since it allows him a few leaping left hooks to compensate for his short arms. He sometimes arm-punches with his jab, but he's mostly using it as an annoyance anyway to get inside. He is, however, stepping and moving forward with the jab, so clearly there's momentum there.

No Speed -- He's fairly fast here. Not Mayweather fast, but faster than many middleweights today. (Including your bete noire Jermain Taylor ). I think you're seeing what you want to see. If you like, we could compare average combination punch time between the two using Youtube film, but that would take a while.

Timing and Distance -- Don't know what you're seeing here. LaMotta doesn't flinch when Robinson is firing too far away to do damage, so his distance can't be that bad. As for timing, he lands enough on a moving target that I doubt his timing was poor. You're going to have to give examples for these generalizations.
Don't waste your time. The majority of the boxing community have Robinson as No. 1 GOAT. That's all that matters.
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Old 09-17-2007, 09:30 AM   #153
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

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Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe
When do you think boxig rpughly started becoming high quality mate -questionmark-

I know it was gradual, but can you list an example time when you think it would have been vastly weaker -qm-
In the United States, boxing became vastly stronger, in my judgement, in the late thirties with the Joe Louis era. The reason is obvious. Integration. Black talent had been cut off at the roots. Why even go into a sport where one got the nothing end of the purse, the best trainers looked the other way, and one was expected to lay down for top white fighters. Things weren't perfect after Joe Louis, but they were better, and there was a tremendous influx of black talent. The forties were certainly better for boxing in America than any previous decade had been.
It should be noted that there were also few other options for black athletes. Most major Amercican sports remained segregated until the late forties (baseball, gridiron football) or even the fifties (NBA).
Sugar Ray Robinson is perhaps the best example of the impact on boxing. Robinson's first love was baseball and baseball scouts who saw him play rated him a top prospect. Had he been born ten years later, Robinson would most likely have been a major league baseball player.

It is also fair to state that historical fluctuations can go the other way. In the United States, the white ethnic boxers so prominent in the first half of the century began to abandon the sport after about 1950 and perhaps a little earlier. This process can actually be traced by checking the Ring Magazine top tens. For example, between 1946 and 1955 there were 12 white American-born fighters rated among the top five heavyweight contenders. Between 1960 and 1979, there were only two, Quarry and Bobick.

If there was a cliche among American boxing "experts" in the sixties, it was that boxing was regressing, or even dying. Everyone harped on the theme that there just weren't as many good fighters as there used to be.
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Old 09-17-2007, 10:30 AM   #154
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

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Originally Posted by cross_trainer
Excuses aren't necessary here.

(By the way, what do you say about Monzon? Is he also a bum because he doesn't look great on film?)
I have no major issues with Monzon.
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Old 09-17-2007, 03:49 PM   #155
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

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Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe
I have no major issues with Monzon.
Yet he and his opponents did not exhibit skills above and beyond the likes of Robinson & co....

Did boxing skill improve at the same time that color film became available?
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Old 09-17-2007, 10:58 PM   #156
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

Bumped for Amsterdam (it's back a few pages)
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Old 09-17-2007, 11:02 PM   #157
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

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Originally Posted by cross_trainer
Bumped for Amsterdam (it's back a few pages)
Thanks, I'll review.
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Old 09-17-2007, 11:12 PM   #158
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

Okay, first of all, he's flat footed and leans into that awful jab far too much instead of stepping behind it like any modern top class fighter does.

In the first bit, around 5:05 he throws a sloppy flurry very off balance, showcasing what I was talking about with footwork, during this, he was wide open for a monster counter.

Also, leverage on his shots? That jab is just awful and he's leaning into it with no snap. There is no precision at all in his punches and they are not coming up through the legs. I'm really amazed at what I am seeing here honestly, in a negative way.

I could finish the video and cite more problems, but honestly, it's depressing.

I await your response.
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Old 09-18-2007, 12:52 AM   #159
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

Well outside of the heavyweights, There was no color bar in the lower weights in the EARLY 1930's.


The lower weights were pretty much taking over by the blacks and the jews.

Barney Ross hide behind no color bar.
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Old 09-18-2007, 12:55 AM   #160
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

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Originally Posted by Amsterdam
Okay, first of all, he's flat footed and leans into that awful jab far too much instead of stepping behind it like any modern top class fighter does.

In the first bit, around 5:05 he throws a sloppy flurry very off balance, showcasing what I was talking about with footwork, during this, he was wide open for a monster counter.

Also, leverage on his shots? That jab is just awful and he's leaning into it with no snap. There is no precision at all in his punches and they are not coming up through the legs. I'm really amazed at what I am seeing here honestly, in a negative way.

I could finish the video and cite more problems, but honestly, it's depressing.

I await your response.
I can't believe a Calzaghe fan is criticizing the technique of others.
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:59 AM   #161
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

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Originally Posted by Amsterdam
Okay, first of all, he's flat footed and leans into that awful jab far too much instead of stepping behind it like any modern top class fighter does.
He's twisting slightly to turn his shoulder to the opponent to guard his head as he's throwing the jab. This causes him to lean in a little, but it isn't a massive flaw. A flaw, but not a terrible one.

As to flat footedness...he has his back foot elevated, as is typical. He drags and push-steps at times, but this is not bad boxing technique (in fact, it's one of the first things learned). And at any rate, he skip-steps pretty frequently in the opening frames.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amsterdam
In the first bit, around 5:05 he throws a sloppy flurry very off balance, showcasing what I was talking about with footwork, during this, he was wide open for a monster counter.
He is only off balance for the last punch--the lunging right to the body. For the rest, he fires and repositions, shifting to Ray's left blind side as he does so. This particular part weakens your case, since as mentioned earlier he does it against a moving target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amsterdam
Also, leverage on his shots? That jab is just awful and he's leaning into it with no snap.
He's getting good leverage on many of his shots.

Watch about 5:04 to 4:52. He steps into the jab, feints stepping into the jab, prepares to jab again and in so doing steps in. Also rotates his body while changing direction and jabbing to get leverage on it. He then clearly rotates his body, and especially his back foot, when he throws his power punches at Robinson's body.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amsterdam
There is no precision at all in his punches and they are not coming up through the legs. I'm really amazed at what I am seeing here honestly, in a negative way.
It's hard to be precise against Robinson. But many of them ARE coming up through the legs. Most, except for when he paws with the jab.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amsterdam
I could finish the video and cite more problems, but honestly, it's depressing.

I await your response.
Tag.
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Old 09-18-2007, 12:42 PM   #162
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

Quote:
Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe
I have no doubt I could land jabs on Sugar Ray Robinson with relative ease, whether I'd be punished after landing is another matter.

Anyhow, LaMotta was a one dimensionsal fighter, Lacy would likely beat him. There may be people under the impression LaMotta was more versatile, but that is only because Robinson's leaking defence allowed Jake to land his Baldomir like jab.

A prime focused Robin Reid is fully capable of beating any <170 name on Robinson's record.


It isn't Sugar Rays fault everyone else was so abysmal though, so lets not get on his back.
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Old 09-19-2007, 01:31 AM   #163
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

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Originally Posted by Dempsey1238
Well outside of the heavyweights, There was no color bar in the lower weights in the EARLY 1930's.


The lower weights were pretty much taking over by the blacks and the jews.

Barney Ross hide behind no color bar.
Excellent point.
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Old 09-19-2007, 06:43 PM   #164
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

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Originally Posted by cross_trainer
I'll make it easy for you. Amsterdam, feel free to jump in.


Here's Pep fighting Saddler:

BORKED




Here's Robinson fighting LaMotta:

BORKED




Here's Mayweather fighting Baldomir:

BORKED



Here's Calzaghe fighting Manfredo:

BORKED






What SPECIFICALLY does the second group do that the first group cannot? And don't say something like "Oh, they are crisper and show better boxing knowledge" because that's a generalization that answers nothing.
I got a chance to drop down to the library and view your clips. I can't give you a specific time, but what impressed me was LaMotta's superior head movement. He fought in a crouch but constantly shifted his torso. If you imagine his head against a clock background, his head would be swinging between the 8 and the 4, depending on what punch Robinson was trying to hit him with. The modern fighters fought straight up with less headmovement in these clips from Manfredo and Baldimir. Mayweather showed good head movement. Calzaghe didn't but didn't have to against a hapless opponent.
I didn't get a chance to view Pep and Saddler, but I didn't myself notice anything the modern guys were doing that the old timers didn't. Clearly LaMotta has a different style than all the others.
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Old 09-19-2007, 06:47 PM   #165
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

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Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY
I got a chance to drop down to the library and view your clips.
Boss, you really got to get your computer sorted so you can see the clips at home.

Nice post though.
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