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Old 09-16-2007, 12:02 AM   #106
SgrRyLeonard
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

Manfredo was in over his head against Calzaghe, and Mayweather wouldn't have the power to hold Robinson off or be able to withstand Robinson's offensive onslaught. If DeLahoya could give Mayweather a competitive fight, think about what Robinson could do to him. Robinson has better stamina than DeLahoya, better power, speed, boxing skill, bodypunching, infighting, footwork, etc. Mayweather would be lucky to see the final bell, let alone actually win.
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Old 09-16-2007, 10:42 AM   #107
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

Quote:
Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe
Looking at the video of Mayweather and the one of Robinson, it is quite clear to me Mayweather outpoints Sugar Ray " open to the jab" Robinson. LaMotta looked mighty predictable there, just walking forwards throwing the jab, no real feinting. .
That's incorrect.

He feinted several times (starting at "5:29" counting downwards) and many of his jabs were coming off of Robinson's jabs, which he slipped (slip/jab). Jabbing your way in is a positive thing, and LaMotta does it. In addition, he mixes his jabs with occasional left hooks and goes to the body well.

Several footwork and body feints as well--two around 5:07 and 4:50-something (the timing may be a bit off there, but it's between those two points).

In fact, if you looked closely at the beginning film you'd find that Robinson was getting away from the jabs pretty easily (using footwork, primarily). It's only when LaMotta tags him to the body with hooks that he becomes more vulnerable to jabs--and as I mentioned, LaMotta sometimes feints the hook to get a jab in. You'll also note that he throws his jab a little like a left hook, making it difficult to discern between the two punches.

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Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe
Perhaps Robinson was intoxicated seeing the way he let it happen over and over, if so I suggest you post a better video you give your side of the argument a better chance..
Perhaps if I posted footage of Robinson in a Calzaghe costume, you'd judge him better. As it is, though, I'm content to convince people who are actually open to argument.

The footage stays.

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Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe
Calzaghe was sublie, gave Manfredo no chance. Plenting of feinting, following it up and unleashing his fury on the cowering Manfredo..
Unleashing his fury squared up with his punches wide and his head leaned forward, which has a tendency to get fighters hit. Fortunately, he was facing Manfredo--not LaMotta.

Quote:
Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe
Perhaps you can post some video of higher quality modern legends, of course Mayweather looks supremely good against Baldomir.
Mayweather is considered P4P #1 right now, and you believe Calzaghe is the greatest fighter who ever breathed. How much higher quality do you want?
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Old 09-16-2007, 11:29 AM   #108
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

Boxing probably peaked in the 1940s and 1950s relative to technique and quality of opposition.
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Old 09-16-2007, 01:38 PM   #109
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

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Boxing probably peaked in the 1940s and 1950s relative to technique and quality of opposition.
I have always felt that boxing was prime from the late 1930s through the mid 1980s.
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Old 09-16-2007, 06:47 PM   #110
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

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Originally Posted by cross_trainer



Mayweather is considered P4P #1 right now, and you believe Calzaghe is the greatest fighter who ever breathed. How much higher quality do you want?
Surely footage of Mayweather actually being challenged would help your case. He wasn't a million miles from being flawless against the plodding Baldomir.
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Old 09-16-2007, 06:51 PM   #111
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SgrRyLeonard
Manfredo was in over his head against Calzaghe, and Mayweather wouldn't have the power to hold Robinson off or be able to withstand Robinson's offensive onslaught. If DeLahoya could give Mayweather a competitive fight, think about what Robinson could do to him. Robinson has better stamina than DeLahoya, better power, speed, boxing skill, bodypunching, infighting, footwork, etc. Mayweather would be lucky to see the final bell, let alone actually win.
Have you ever even seen Robinson fight mate -questionmark-

He had trouble against Basilio even, imagine what Mayweather might do. Despite their differing styles he demonstrated plenty of offensive limitations in Robinson's game.
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Old 09-16-2007, 07:51 PM   #112
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

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Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe
Have you ever even seen Robinson fight mate -questionmark-

He had trouble against Basilio even, imagine what Mayweather might do. Despite their differing styles he demonstrated plenty of offensive limitations in Robinson's game.
Did you ever stop to recall - or learn - that Robinson was pushing 40 years of age and a veteran over 100 fights when he met Basilio?
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Old 09-16-2007, 07:53 PM   #113
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

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Originally Posted by Street Lethal
Did you ever stop to recall - or learn - that Robinson was pushing 40 years of age and a veteran over 100 fights when he met Basilio?
And those are just the pro fights.

It should also be noted that he still looks pretty good!
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Old 09-16-2007, 07:54 PM   #114
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

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And those are just the pro fights.

It should also be noted that he still looks pretty good!
Yes he did. It also should be said that Basilio was two time welterweight champion and a tough little SOB. Robinson was a welterweight fighting at middle, just as was Basilio.
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Old 09-16-2007, 08:00 PM   #115
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

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Originally Posted by Street Lethal
Yes he did. It also should be said that Basilio was two time welterweight champion and a tough little SOB. Robinson was a welterweight fighting at middle, just as was Basilio.
Sure. Bassilo would not be near the top of a list of fighters you would want to fight in your veteran years whatever else he was.

You could argue the case for him as being one of the "toughest" ever.
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Old 09-16-2007, 08:01 PM   #116
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

from the late 30's???

What about Benny Leonard? Barney Ross?? Tommy Loughran?? Joe Gans?? Were they just all out sluggers?? No knowing the basics of boxing tactics'? Leonard would be hell for any other boxing. So would Ross.
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Old 09-16-2007, 08:01 PM   #117
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

Yes, I've seen some of Robinson's fights. Basilio was a relentless pressure fighter/swarmer who was himself an all time great, winning the Welterweight and Middleweight championships. He fought the fights of his life against Robinson. Those fights with Basilio were the twilight of Robinson's career; it's expected that you'd have trouble at the end of your career against a prime, focused, determined ATG. Mayweather didn't exactly dominate DeLahoya, who everyone knows was past his prime yet was able to give him a competitive fight. He'd have to box Robinson, and if that didn't work he'd be screwed. Robinson could try boxing and if that doesn't work turn it into a fight.
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Old 09-16-2007, 08:08 PM   #118
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dempsey1238
from the late 30's???

What about Benny Leonard? Barney Ross?? Tommy Loughran?? Joe Gans?? Were they just all out sluggers?? No knowing the basics of boxing tactics'? Leonard would be hell for any other boxing. So would Ross.
There are exceptions. Benny Leonard is definitely one of them. I am including Ross, Canzoneri and the like in the late 1930s. It seems the lower weight classes came along faster.

I don't include Joe Gans. Sorry, but I am not impressed by what I have seen from him. I don't include very many people from that time. I think the sport was, overall, rather primitive then.
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Old 09-16-2007, 08:08 PM   #119
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SgrRyLeonard
Yes, I've seen some of Robinson's fights. Basilio was a relentless pressure fighter/swarmer who was himself an all time great, winning the Welterweight and Middleweight championships. He fought the fights of his life against Robinson. Those fights with Basilio were the twilight of Robinson's career; it's expected that you'd have trouble at the end of your career against a prime, focused, determined ATG. Mayweather didn't exactly dominate DeLahoya, who everyone knows was past his prime yet was able to give him a competitive fight. He'd have to box Robinson, and if that didn't work he'd be screwed. Robinson could try boxing and if that doesn't work turn it into a fight.
This pretty much says it all.
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Old 09-16-2007, 09:19 PM   #120
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Default Re: Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Street Lethal
Did you ever stop to recall - or learn - that Robinson was pushing 40 years of age and a veteran over 100 fights when he met Basilio?
He was years off 37. Don't exaggerate stuff mate, I hate it when people do that.

Basilio was a midget welter weight with no defence. He is one of the worst boxers I have ever seen.

Te same weaknesses in Robinson were apparent against LaMotta. Mayweather would find landing jabs on Robinson relatively easy work, and his supreme defences skills would keep him safe, as he out boxes Robinson over an uneventful 12 rounds.
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