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Old 09-02-2009, 10:21 AM   #1
McGrain
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Default Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

Just how impressive is Johnson's early career?

The original source is The Palestine Daily Herald, a Texas paper, July 5 1910. The paper is going over Johnson's early career, picking out his kep wins as part of the aftermath of the new champion's victory over Jeffries:

After [beating Charley Brooks] Johnson did not want for fights. He cleaned up the best of the darkies in the black belt, among his early victories being a knockout of Horace Miles in three rounds

Boxrec lists "no data" for Horace Miles.

Crossing this reference with The Washington Herald's issue of Monday July 4 1910, the fight is referenced again - a win in three rounds over Horace Miles in 1901. Infuriatingly, there is no date for the fight. Interesting that The Palestine regards this as one of Johnson's early wins, over a fighter of note but boxrec has nothing on him. I thought perhaps he fought the later part of his career under a different name, but Johnson's record for 1901 shows no third round Ko, probably ruling this out. In fact, Johnson's record for 1901 is suspiciously sparse:

Jim Scanlon (draw in 7), 14th January
Joe Choynski (L KO3) 25th Febuary
Billy Stift (draw 10) 26th April
Hank Griffen (LPTS 20) 4th November
Hang Griffen (Draw 15) 27th December


The Palestine again:

...Then George Lawlor, an Irish giant, who fought under the name of Jim McArmick.

The Washington Herald lists fights with this supposed giant, two back to back wins, also in 1901, but has no record of the 10 round decision. Boxrec shows no fighter named McArmick who fought over this year, but it DOES show a George Lawlor listed at 6'3 who weighed in at 180 for a 1900 fight with Tommy Ryan (LTKO13). If it's the same guy, that's quite an impressive scalp I think, though it might not be the same guy.

What do you think so far? Do you think these fights took place? Johnson is basically doing nothing for 7 months in 1901 which doesn't strike as very likely. The Palestine again:

...In between his fights with McArmick, Johnson defeated Jack Lee.

Not on boxrec. The Washington Herald lists Johnson as fighting a John Lee at around this time, a win over 10 rounds on points. Obviously I got the phone book looking for this guy, but I can't find a John or Jack Lee active in 1901 on boxrec, though I may have gone video blind at this point.



Boxrec has Johnson going 7-0-1 in 1902.

The Palestine: 1902 was the big one for Johnson. He was the principle in 16 contests, not losing one and having four draws.

Unfortunately, The Palestine does not put it's finger on any fights that boxrec does not list, concentrating on Johnson's "playing with" Jack Jeffries. But, and I think this is a bit exciting, The Washington Herald lists 16 fights for Johnson in 1902. I'll put it up word for word here:


Jan 17--D. Frank Childs, Chicago........6
K. Dan Murphy, Waterbury.....10
K. Ed. Johnson, Galveston......4
Mar 7--Joe Kennedy, Oakland...........4
Mar 15K Joe Kennedy, San Fransisco...4
W Bob White..........................15
W Jim Scanlan........................17
May 16k Jack Jeffries, LA..................5
K Klondyke, Memphis...............13
D Billy Stift, Denver..................10
Jun 20D Hank Griffin, LA.....................20
D Hank Griffin, LA.....................15
W Pete Everett, Victor, Colo........20
Oct21W Frank Childs, LA.....................12
Oct31W George Gardner, San Fransisco..20
Dec5 W.F Fred Russell, LA...................8

Quite a bit to be excited about here. The six round draw with Childs on Jan 17, the Ed Johnson, the March 15 fight with Joe Kennedy, Bob White, Jim Scanlan (possibly this is a refernce to the 1901 contest, however), the 13 round Ko of Klondyke (these two met a couple of times so this is a possible misprint), Billy Stift (as Klondyke) fights are all unlisted.

A lot of this is going to need a second look, and some horrible piss ant cross referencing, obviously, but thoughts so far?

Last edited by McGrain; 09-02-2009 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 09-02-2009, 10:44 AM   #2
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

Sorry for the language (i thought it was important to reproduce the article as it stood), but I think it's interesting Johnson was seen to have "cleaned up the best of the darkies in the black belt". Like he'd cleaned out local HW toughs rather than just sweeping through it as is held to be the case.

Last edited by McGrain; 09-02-2009 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 09-02-2009, 11:14 AM   #3
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

What Johnson's record never conveys is his reputation, which was something to be reckoned with when he was climbing.

Choynski was a great veteran, but after tasting a bit of Johnson he knew what he was dealing with. This guy could move and he was as powerful as a truck. When folk crowded around Johnson to view him spar they could see how easily he tied his man and refuted any attempts of offense. He had an impregnability about him that was daunting and commanded interest.

There were the ever present racists that continually harped on about the physical differences of the black man, which led to illogical stabs at science like Johnsons rips are a bit too high to take a body shot well. Then there were the purists, who had nothing but praise for the dangerous splice of brains and brawn he clearly had.

Sure, Langford was a killer, but he did not have that empiric demeanour of Johnson who was also far better at talking the talk.

The fact Johnson got a shot at Burns showed how much of an impact he had had on the consciousness of 'White America'.
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Old 09-02-2009, 11:18 AM   #4
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

More attune to the thread, there will be a great deal of Johnson fights that will never be retrieved, simply for the fact the guy had dust-ups in the most obscure of places and times, whether it to be for some spare change or to prove a point.
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Old 09-02-2009, 05:57 PM   #5
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

No takers? Not even Mendoza?!
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Old 09-02-2009, 06:07 PM   #6
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

Mcarmick is probably Jim Mc Cormick(or McCormack) and if my memory is correct Lawlor fought in the Texas area. My guess is these fights happened but I'll try a little checking.
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Old 09-02-2009, 06:17 PM   #7
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

Very cool matt.

I'm going to do some snooping too, but probably not until Friday night.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:57 AM   #8
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Just how impressive is Johnson's early career?

The original source is The Palestine Daily Herald, a Texas paper, July 5 1910. The paper is going over Johnson's early career, picking out his kep wins as part of the aftermath of the new champion's victory over Jeffries:

After [beating Charley Brooks] Johnson did not want for fights. He cleaned up the best of the darkies in the black belt, among his early victories being a knockout of Horace Miles in three rounds

Boxrec lists "no data" for Horace Miles.

Crossing this reference with The Washington Herald's issue of Monday July 4 1910, the fight is referenced again - a win in three rounds over Horace Miles in 1901. Infuriatingly, there is no date for the fight. Interesting that The Palestine regards this as one of Johnson's early wins, over a fighter of note but boxrec has nothing on him. I thought perhaps he fought the later part of his career under a different name, but Johnson's record for 1901 shows no third round Ko, probably ruling this out. In fact, Johnson's record for 1901 is suspiciously sparse:

Jim Scanlon (draw in 7), 14th January
Joe Choynski (L KO3) 25th Febuary
Billy Stift (draw 10) 26th April
Hank Griffen (LPTS 20) 4th November
Hang Griffen (Draw 15) 27th December


The Palestine again:

...Then George Lawlor, an Irish giant, who fought under the name of Jim McArmick.

The Washington Herald lists fights with this supposed giant, two back to back wins, also in 1901, but has no record of the 10 round decision. Boxrec shows no fighter named McArmick who fought over this year, but it DOES show a George Lawlor listed at 6'3 who weighed in at 180 for a 1900 fight with Tommy Ryan (LTKO13). If it's the same guy, that's quite an impressive scalp I think, though it might not be the same guy.

What do you think so far? Do you think these fights took place? Johnson is basically doing nothing for 7 months in 1901 which doesn't strike as very likely. The Palestine again:

...In between his fights with McArmick, Johnson defeated Jack Lee.

Not on boxrec. The Washington Herald lists Johnson as fighting a John Lee at around this time, a win over 10 rounds on points. Obviously I got the phone book looking for this guy, but I can't find a John or Jack Lee active in 1901 on boxrec, though I may have gone video blind at this point.



Boxrec has Johnson going 7-0-1 in 1902.

The Palestine: 1902 was the big one for Johnson. He was the principle in 16 contests, not losing one and having four draws.

Unfortunately, The Palestine does not put it's finger on any fights that boxrec does not list, concentrating on Johnson's "playing with" Jack Jeffries. But, and I think this is a bit exciting, The Washington Herald lists 16 fights for Johnson in 1902. I'll put it up word for word here:


Jan 17--D. Frank Childs, Chicago........6
K. Dan Murphy, Waterbury.....10
K. Ed. Johnson, Galveston......4
Mar 7--Joe Kennedy, Oakland...........4
Mar 15K Joe Kennedy, San Fransisco...4
W Bob White..........................15
W Jim Scanlan........................17
May 16k Jack Jeffries, LA..................5
K Klondyke, Memphis...............13
D Billy Stift, Denver..................10
Jun 20D Hank Griffin, LA.....................20
D Hank Griffin, LA.....................15
W Pete Everett, Victor, Colo........20
Oct21W Frank Childs, LA.....................12
Oct31W George Gardner, San Fransisco..20
Dec5 W.F Fred Russell, LA...................8

Quite a bit to be excited about here. The six round draw with Childs on Jan 17, the Ed Johnson, the March 15 fight with Joe Kennedy, Bob White, Jim Scanlan (possibly this is a refernce to the 1901 contest, however), the 13 round Ko of Klondyke (these two met a couple of times so this is a possible misprint), Billy Stift (as Klondyke) fights are all unlisted.

A lot of this is going to need a second look, and some horrible piss ant cross referencing, obviously, but thoughts so far?
I am on a business trip, but the ring results are just that. Johnson wasn't a serious contender until the sun set on Fitzsimmons and Corbett.

When I first started reviewing records with a fine toothed comb, I was surprised that Choynski, Klondike, Hart and Griffin got the better of Johnson, but McVey, Langford and Jeannette could not.

The truth is this. Choynski, Hart, Klondike, and Griffin were not green fighters, they were not old fighters, and they were more or less close in size to Johnson. And, Johnson lost to each of these men because unlike Langford they were not 156 pounds. Unlike McVey they were not teenagers, and unlike Jeanette they were not a raw novice with a losing or .500 record.

Does anyone disagree or agree with the above statements?

In my opinion Johnson began to come into his own around 1906-1907. Much has been made about Choynski showing Johnson a thing or two about boxing when they were in jail. While this is true, the things Choysnki showed Johnson did not help his results for the next few years.

I tend to think Johnson put it all together and developed John Ruiz like jab and clinch style, mixed in with a very good uppercut. Johnson said he learned the upper cut from Griffin. This " new style " limited Johnson's chances of being Ko'd by the bigger punchers since his chin vs hitters who actually landed punches was suspect. It also took advantage of his strength.

Here something to re-seaarch. Do reports on Johnson pre Marvin Hart speak of excessive clinching? The ones I read suggest more action.

Joe Choynski did not fight like John Ruiz. Choynski used quick used movement and a left hook.
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:36 AM   #9
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
I am on a business trip, but the ring results are just that. Johnson wasn't a serious contender until the sun set on Fitzsimmons and Corbett.
Such sources as I have seen suggest that Johnson was seen as a serious contender after he beat George Gardiner. Going into the fight Gardiner was a slight favourite.

Quote:
When I first started reviewing records with a fine toothed comb, I was surprised that Choynski, Klondike, Hart and Griffin got the better of Johnson, but McVey, Langford and Jeannette could not.

The truth is this. Choynski, Hart, Klondike, and Griffin were not green fighters, they were not old fighters, and they were more or less close in size to Johnson. And, Johnson lost to each of these men because unlike Langford they were not 156 pounds. Unlike McVey they were not teenagers, and unlike Jeanette they were not a raw novice with a losing or .500 record.

Does anyone disagree or agree with the above statements?
I absolutely disagree.

I think that Johnson simply didn't come into his best untill the period after the Gardiner fight.

I also think that even the green versions opf the black dynamite group were a class above Hains and Griffin, and possibly Hart also.

Quote:
I tend to think Johnson put it all together and developed John Ruiz like jab and clinch style, mixed in with a very good uppercut. Johnson said he learned the upper cut from Griffin. This " new style " limited Johnson's chances of being Ko'd by the bigger punchers since his chin vs hitters who actually landed punches was suspect. It also took advantage of his strength.

Here something to re-seaarch. Do reports on Johnson pre Marvin Hart speak of excessive clinching? The ones I read suggest more action.
I think the Ruiz analogy is horible.

Firstly the fights where Johnson clincehs a lot were all against much smaller oponents. Against larger oponents he boxes and moves more and holds less.

Secondly Johnson never employed a jab and grab style like Ruiz to avoid fighting. He did a lot of fighting in the clinches and employed holds in a verry different manner to Ruiz.
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

Choynski was an old fighter in boxing terms and several years past his best, Martin, McVea and Jeannette were as big as Choynsky, Klondike and Griffin and Hart. Langford was small and light but he wasn't green.
I too have been surprised by Johnson's set-backs but there is no obvious pattern. But make no mistake by the time he was beating Childs and Martin he was a serious contender. Kennedy, Russel, Griffin, Gardner etc were fringe contenders.
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:58 PM   #11
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Just how impressive is Johnson's early career?

The original source is The Palestine Daily Herald, a Texas paper, July 5 1910. The paper is going over Johnson's early career, picking out his kep wins as part of the aftermath of the new champion's victory over Jeffries:

After [beating Charley Brooks] Johnson did not want for fights. He cleaned up the best of the darkies in the black belt, among his early victories being a knockout of Horace Miles in three rounds

Boxrec lists "no data" for Horace Miles.

Crossing this reference with The Washington Herald's issue of Monday July 4 1910, the fight is referenced again - a win in three rounds over Horace Miles in 1901. Infuriatingly, there is no date for the fight. Interesting that The Palestine regards this as one of Johnson's early wins, over a fighter of note but boxrec has nothing on him. I thought perhaps he fought the later part of his career under a different name, but Johnson's record for 1901 shows no third round Ko, probably ruling this out. In fact, Johnson's record for 1901 is suspiciously sparse:

Jim Scanlon (draw in 7), 14th January
Joe Choynski (L KO3) 25th Febuary
Billy Stift (draw 10) 26th April
Hank Griffen (LPTS 20) 4th November
Hang Griffen (Draw 15) 27th December


The Palestine again:

...Then George Lawlor, an Irish giant, who fought under the name of Jim McArmick.

The Washington Herald lists fights with this supposed giant, two back to back wins, also in 1901, but has no record of the 10 round decision. Boxrec shows no fighter named McArmick who fought over this year, but it DOES show a George Lawlor listed at 6'3 who weighed in at 180 for a 1900 fight with Tommy Ryan (LTKO13). If it's the same guy, that's quite an impressive scalp I think, though it might not be the same guy.

What do you think so far? Do you think these fights took place? Johnson is basically doing nothing for 7 months in 1901 which doesn't strike as very likely. The Palestine again:

...In between his fights with McArmick, Johnson defeated Jack Lee.

Not on boxrec. The Washington Herald lists Johnson as fighting a John Lee at around this time, a win over 10 rounds on points. Obviously I got the phone book looking for this guy, but I can't find a John or Jack Lee active in 1901 on boxrec, though I may have gone video blind at this point.



Boxrec has Johnson going 7-0-1 in 1902.

The Palestine: 1902 was the big one for Johnson. He was the principle in 16 contests, not losing one and having four draws.

Unfortunately, The Palestine does not put it's finger on any fights that boxrec does not list, concentrating on Johnson's "playing with" Jack Jeffries. But, and I think this is a bit exciting, The Washington Herald lists 16 fights for Johnson in 1902. I'll put it up word for word here:


Jan 17--D. Frank Childs, Chicago........6
K. Dan Murphy, Waterbury.....10
K. Ed. Johnson, Galveston......4
Mar 7--Joe Kennedy, Oakland...........4
Mar 15K Joe Kennedy, San Fransisco...4
W Bob White..........................15
W Jim Scanlan........................17
May 16k Jack Jeffries, LA..................5
K Klondyke, Memphis...............13
D Billy Stift, Denver..................10
Jun 20D Hank Griffin, LA.....................20
D Hank Griffin, LA.....................15
W Pete Everett, Victor, Colo........20
Oct21W Frank Childs, LA.....................12
Oct31W George Gardner, San Fransisco..20
Dec5 W.F Fred Russell, LA...................8

Quite a bit to be excited about here. The six round draw with Childs on Jan 17, the Ed Johnson, the March 15 fight with Joe Kennedy, Bob White, Jim Scanlan (possibly this is a refernce to the 1901 contest, however), the 13 round Ko of Klondyke (these two met a couple of times so this is a possible misprint), Billy Stift (as Klondyke) fights are all unlisted.

A lot of this is going to need a second look, and some horrible piss ant cross referencing, obviously, but thoughts so far?
Just caught your post ,I have been in Brussels.
I have the following.
1895 Dave Pierson w Galveston.
1895 Bob Thompson l dec 4 Galveston.
1896.Howard Pollar w Galveston.
1897.Jim Rocks w ko4 Galveston.
1897.Sam Smith,w dec10 Galveston.
1898.Reddy Bremer,wko3 Galveston.
1898.Jim Cole wdec4 Galveston.
1898.Henry Smith.d 15 Galveston.
1899 Feb11th Jim McCormick d 7 Galveston
1899 March17 th JimMcCormick w dsq7 Galveston
1899.May6th Klondike lko5 Chicago

1899 Dec16th Pat Smith d 12 Galveston
1900 Josh Smith wdec12 Memphis
I have 118 fights listed for Johnson to Box rec's 102.
My source is "In the Ring And Out".
The ring record was compiled by Gilbert Odd ,it's Editor.
With the following comment.
"The records of earlier fighters ring activities are allways obscure and notoriously difficult to compile.
In the days before sophisticated,PR techniques,and complex tax considerations,a boxer customarily fought scores ,even hundreds of poorly documented contests,-sometimes two , or three on the same day- at both ends of a noteworthy career..
The following is the result of many years of research and is probably the most accurate and complete record of Jack Johnson ever published.
If you want all those listed Mac, I will try and up load them .

I have Horace Miles down as having fought Johnson in 1901 a ko win for Johnson in 3 rds, the fight in Galveston.

I have three fights with Griffin in 1902 .All draws

June20 10 rds Los Angeles
July 4th 20 rds Los Angeles
Sept ? 20rds Los Angeles.

I have an addtional Kennedy fight, a week after there Mar7th 4rdko win for Johnson,which took place in Oakland.
I have Johnson koing Kennedy on Mar 15th in San Francisco.

The Jim Scanlan fight was on May 1st a 7rd ko for Johnson.

ps Johnson gave two boxing exhibitions in Rosherville Gardens ,in Kent, opposite where my girlfriend lives now.
I HAVE NO AGENDA HERE NOR DESIRE TO ENGAGE IN A DISPUTE WITH A CERTAIN MEMBER,. WHO SHALL BE NAMELESS

Last edited by mcvey; 09-03-2009 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:04 PM   #12
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
I am on a business trip,.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Just caught your post ,I have been in Brussels.

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Old 09-03-2009, 06:10 PM   #13
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
When I first started reviewing records with a fine toothed comb,
Anything on these fights in particular Mendoza? The ones listed above?

Quote:
I was surprised that Choynski, Klondike, Hart and Griffin got the better of Johnson, but McVey, Langford and Jeannette could not.
Well there are years between the Klondike and Choynski setbacks and McVey/Langford/Jeannette, most of all the year of 1902, where the above suggests that Johnson went undefeated that year, seen as a feat by the writer of the Washington article.

Quote:
In my opinion Johnson began to come into his own around 1906-1907. Much has been made about Choynski showing Johnson a thing or two about boxing when they were in jail. While this is true, the things Choysnki showed Johnson did not help his results for the next few years.
Why do you say that? Johnson loses twice between 1902 and 1915 according to boxrec, which seems to come up short on how many fights Johnson actually had, and one of those losses was by DQ. Whether or not Choynski was the reason, 1902 appears to have been a big year.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:12 PM   #14
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post
Such sources as I have seen suggest that Johnson was seen as a serious contender after he beat George Gardiner.
The Washington article I referenced in the opening post has Johnson calling out Jeffries after the first McVey fight of '03 and Jeffries "drawing the colour line".
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:14 PM   #15
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
If you want all those listed Mac, i will try and up load them

What would be really good chum, would be if you could compare the 16 fights i've got listed in the opening post for 1902 with your list, and see what the differences/similarities are.

Also, if there are any dates for any of the fights listed in that post which currently don't have dates?

That would be champion, chum.
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