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Old 09-03-2009, 06:22 PM   #16
janitor
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
The Washington article I referenced in the opening post has Johnson calling out Jeffries after the first McVey fight of '03 and Jeffries "drawing the colour line".
I think there is a refference to him calling out Jeffries after he won the coloured heavyweigh title from Denver Ed Martin.

Prety standard practice after you won that particular title.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:22 PM   #17
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

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We are actually Man and Wife.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:24 PM   #18
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

My research would suggest it is dangerous to accept secondary sources for these fights as they seem to be a hotch-potch of his early career with the fights all jumbled up. i am sure Jack had a load more fights than these listed but dont see his legacy greatly effected either way by these fights, from late 1901 on he was defeating good class opponents easily in general.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:25 PM   #19
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

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We are actually Man and Wife.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdonnellon View Post
My research would suggest it is dangerous to accept secondary sources for these fights as they seem to be a hotch-potch of his early career with the fights all jumbled up..
Absolutely. I think there is no way to proceed without a primary source, which I haven't been able to put my paw on.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:26 PM   #20
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

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We are actually Man and Wife.
Who's da man?
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:27 PM   #21
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

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Who's da man?


My thread. This particular conversation stops HERE.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:33 PM   #22
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

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What would be really good chum, would be if you could compare the 16 fights i've got listed in the opening post for 1902 with your list, and see what the differences/similarities are.

Also, if there are any dates for any of the fights listed in that post which currently don't have dates?

That would be champion, chum.
1902
April 6th Bob White
May 1st Jim Scanlan wko 7rds Pittsburgh.
May 28th Klondike
June 4th Billy Stift.
July 4th Hank Griffin LA
Sep 3rd Pete Everett.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:37 PM   #23
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

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1902
April 6th Bob White
May 1st Jim Scanlan wko 7rds Pittsburgh.
May 28th Klondike
June 4th Billy Stift.
July 4th Hank Griffin LA
Sep 3rd Pete Everett.

Good man
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:56 PM   #24
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

JACK JOHNSON'S RECORD. (newzeland paper 1915)

Following is Jack Johnson'e record iSqq— Lost to Klondike five rounds. 1901i — Beat John Lee, 15 rounds; J. K. McCormack, seven rounds; J. K. McCoranack ; seven rounds ; knocked out Chas. Brooks, two rounds; Horace Mills, three rounds; George Lawler, 10 rounds ; lost to. Joe Choyisky, three rounds, a knock-out; drew with' Klondike, 20 rounds. 1902 — Beat Bob White, 15 rounds; Jim Scanlan, seven rounds ; Peter Everitt, 20 rounds; Frank. Childs, 12 rounds; George Gardiner, 20 rounds lost on foul to Fred. Russell, eight) rounds; knocked out Dan Murphy ,10 rounds; Ed Johnson, ,-four rounds; Joe Kennedy, four rounds ; JacK. Jeffries, five rounds; Klondike, 13 rounds ; drew with Frank Childs, six rounds; beat Billy Stift, 10 rounds, Hank Griffen, 20 rounds; Hank Griffen, i5 rounds.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:02 PM   #25
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

That's a third secondary source indicating additional fights in 1902.

Still nothing additional on the second Kennedy fight though.

What was the name of the paper matt?
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:03 PM   #26
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

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Originally Posted by mattdonnellon View Post
Mcarmick is probably Jim Mc Cormick(or McCormack) and if my memory is correct Lawlor fought in the Texas area. My guess is these fights happened but I'll try a little checking.
I have the following.
1899.Feb11th Jim McCormick d 7rds Galveston [ note the 7rds,what happened?]
1899 Mar 17th Jim McCormick w dsq 7rds Galveston .

1901.May 6th Jim McCormick w ko 2 rds Galveston
1901.May 28th JimMcCormick w ko 2rds Galveston.


1901 George Lawler w ko 10rds Galveston.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:05 PM   #27
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

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I have the following.
1899.Feb11th Jim McCormick d 7rds Galveston [ note the 7rds,what happened?]
1899 Mar 17th Jim McCormick w dsq 7rds Galvestonton.
The Palestine Daily Herald just has him "beating McCormick twice over seven rounds", whether this was the agreed distance or by stoppage is not clear.
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Old 09-04-2009, 06:32 AM   #28
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

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Originally Posted by Mendoza [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
I am on a business trip, but the ring results are just that. Johnson wasn't a serious contender until the sun set on Fitzsimmons and Corbett.

Quote:
Janitor says : Such sources as I have seen suggest that Johnson was seen as a serious contender after he beat George Gardiner. Going into the fight Gardiner was a slight favourite.
And in 1902 Johnson wasn't in line to get a title shot anytime soon.


Quote:
When I first started reviewing records with a fine toothed comb, I was surprised that Choynski, Klondike, Hart and Griffin got the better of Johnson, but McVey, Langford and Jeannette could not.

The truth is this. Choynski, Hart, Klondike, and Griffin were not green fighters, they were not old fighters, and they were more or less close in size to Johnson. And, Johnson lost to each of these men because unlike Langford they were not 156 pounds. Unlike McVey they were not teenagers, and unlike Jeanette they were not a raw novice with a losing or .500 record.

Does anyone disagree or agree with the above statements?
Quote:
Janitor says: I absolutely disagree.
What do you disagree on?.

1 ) That Johnson when matched vs men with some talent near equal to him in ability and size struggled and was defeated prior to 1906?

2 ) That Langford was small when he meet Johnson, Jeanette was a novice .500 fighter, or McVey was a teenager?

or 3 ) That Johnson clinched a lot, like Ruiz did.

Sorry Janitor, the above are accurate.


Quote:
Janitor says: I think that Johnson simply didn't come into his best untill the period after the Gardiner fight.
Agree, but I think he came into his own around the 1906-1907 period.

Quote:
Janitor says : I also think that even the green versions opf the black dynamite group were a class above Hains and Griffin, and possibly Hart also.

No way. You simply can not explain the losses of Jeanette and even Langford ( at heavyweight ) to lesser types. Griffin, Choynski, and Hart as mature fighters were better than Langford at 156 pounds, or Jeanette with a losing or .500 record. You could argue McVey, but he was only a teenager.

Quote:
I tend to think Johnson put it all together and developed John Ruiz like jab and clinch style, mixed in with a very good uppercut. Johnson said he learned the upper cut from Griffin. This " new style " limited Johnson's chances of being Ko'd by the bigger punchers since his chin vs hitters who actually landed punches was suspect. It also took advantage of his strength.

Here something to re-seaarch. Do reports on Johnson pre Marvin Hart speak of excessive clinching? The ones I read suggest more action.
Quote:
Janitor says : I think the Ruiz analogy is horible.

Firstly the fights where Johnson clincehs a lot were all against much smaller oponents. Against larger oponents he boxes and moves more and holds less.

Secondly Johnson never employed a jab and grab style like Ruiz to avoid fighting. He did a lot of fighting in the clinches and employed holds in a verry different manner to Ruiz.
Ruiz didn't clinch much vs bigger men/stronger men. He did it vs guys his size. Johnson wasn't a fool. He knew he couldn't clinch Willard much. While Ruiz jabed and grabbed, Johnson grabbed, then used in uppercuts via some hitting and holding. Neither Johnson or Ruiz were volume punchers, and both could be boring to watch at time. There are some similarities here.
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Old 09-04-2009, 07:55 AM   #29
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

According to Tad Dorgan ,of the San Francisco Bulletin and New York Journal, Johnson, got the fight with Gardner like this.
"The first time I ever saw Jack Johnson was in 1901, when he was acting as a sparring partner for Kid Carter,the LHvy from Brooklyn,Carter at that time was training for a fight with George Gardner, in San Francisco. He was training at Croll's gardens in Alameda,across the bay from the big town.

Johnson at the time was a tall happy go lucky young fellow who would rather tell jokes than box.
The news paper boys use to sit around and listen to him spin yarns after each work out.
On the Sunday before the fight ,a delegation of sporting men from Frisco,headed by Jim Coffroth,the promoter ,visited Carter's camp to give him the up and down.
After the usual gym training ,Carter put the gloves on for a 4 round work out with Johnson.In the 3rd of the affair, Johnson hit the boss a little harder than a sparring partner is supposed to,sock his paymaster,and Carter got mad.
"Trying to show me up eh?"He growled.he lowered his head and tore into Johnson.
"I'll show you who the boss is around here ,he added".
Carter did his best to knock Johnson stiff,but instead of showing the tall coloured felow up,,he was shown up himself,and only for Promoter Coffroth ,who stopped the bout when Carter was groggy and all inthe big card might have been a flop.
Coming home on the boat that evening the sports talked more about Johnson than they did about Carter.
They were sure that a new big man who could fight, had arrived
Gardner beat Carter in the big fight and Johnson the unknown was then given a chance with Gardner.He gave the Boston Lhvy a pasting,and from then on was a main eventer for Coffroth's shows.
That was Johnson's start in the city,by the Golden Gate.
After that Johnson beat every man he was sent against.He lost a decision to Marvin Hart,but that was never taken seriously."

Jack Dempsey described Dorgan like this."He is the greatest authority on boxing"

Last edited by mcvey; 09-04-2009 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 09-05-2009, 10:06 AM   #30
mattdonnellon
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Default Re: Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
That's a third secondary source indicating additional fights in 1902.

Still nothing additional on the second Kennedy fight though.

What was the name of the paper matt?
Grey River Argus April 10,1915
Also in Hawera & Normanby Star, 5 July 1910 (NZ paper)

Last edited by mattdonnellon; 09-05-2009 at 10:09 AM. Reason: additional info.
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