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Old 09-11-2009, 04:17 PM   #16
PetethePrince
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Default Re: TOP 20 Heavyweights NEW LIST

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
I like Walcott, but #4 is absurdly high. Ali should not be lower than Marciano or Louis. Holmes at 14 is an injustice. Quarry was one of my favorite fighters, but no way does he belong in the top 20. Dempsey has no place in the top 10, or certainly not at #6.
Depends on your criteria.
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Old 09-11-2009, 06:43 PM   #17
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A noob would be laughed off the site for this list. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but this is a complete disgrace.
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Old 09-11-2009, 06:51 PM   #18
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Default Re: TOP 20 Heavyweights NEW LIST

Jersey Joe Walcott is a God. I am not joking.
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Old 09-11-2009, 06:53 PM   #19
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Jersey Joe Walcott is a God. I am not joking.
I have nothing against Jersey Joe and if someone had him in the lower reaches of the top ten I would certainly accept that but at no.4 is just ridiculous.
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Old 09-11-2009, 07:24 PM   #20
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I am a big fan of Walcott, sandwiched in between the 2 greatest 15 rd late power punchers Ever in the heavyweight division. Like I said he was erratic and had a less than stella start ( like a Freddie Pembleton or Art Kettles or Saol Mamby even a Fritzie Zivic) but what emerged was a late bloomer with power and skill. Do I think on a given night he could upset Ali...YES..and do a much better job than light hitting Young, Do I think he could upset Foreman, ABSOLUTLEY, Could he beat Dempsey, YES, Mike Tyson Yes...he almost beat Louis and Marciano...and at 37 he was a serious force to be reckoned with Hopkins and Toney showed us some fighters improve with age, well Walcott was completely fit and almost upset the 2 best late rd power punchers ever....Its only my opinion but I have spoken to some serious boxing minds like Buddy McGirt, Flash Gordon,Al Certo,Tommy Gallagher and they all have Walcott rated highly and feel on a given night he could have upset the best....Could you imagine if he had to only fight 12 rds
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Old 09-11-2009, 07:44 PM   #21
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Default Re: TOP 20 Heavyweights NEW LIST

I am currently revisiting my all-time heavyweight list, looking at all the top heavyweights again, and trying to expand my list to a top 50. It will probably be my last list, and will be copied and passed on to my descendants along with other lists and thoughts I have. Walcott at #4 is interesting. I have never had him that high, and have never seen him that high before on another serious list. I will take another look at him while I am at it. I have always liked Jersey Joe, loved watching his fights. He's given me many great memories. Thanks for making me think about him again, Bummy Davis!
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Old 09-11-2009, 07:54 PM   #22
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Ok, here comes a rant. Sorry...

Yes, of course, giving Walcott the number 4 spot makes no sense. But then finding a spot for Walcott in the top 10 makes no sense, either.

The problem for Walcott devotees is that Walcott is neither good enough nor did anything deserving of a top 10 ranking.

Do people really believe that Walcott would beat any of the following in a fight in which both were on top of their game: Muhammad Ali, Larry Holmes, George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, or Rocky Marciano?

We know he lost to the last three names. Properly trained and motivated, even a badly faded Joe Louis clobbered Walcott. Ezzard Charles twice defeated him by wide margins. Yes, Walcott caught lightning in a bottle one night, but Ezzard was in his 76th fight and, as a light heavyweight long fighting as a heavyweight, his vulnerability to a clean shot was understandable. (I hear tell he recover his old form in the fourth encounter.) Marciano knocked out Walcott with a single punch. Twice.

Let's be honest: Walcott's record is miserable. He lost 18 times against 51 wins. Of those 18 losses, six were by way of knockout. He was knocked out by Abe Simon, Abe Ettore, and Tiger Jack Fox. Fox whipped Walcott on points in the rematch. Walcott lost to tough but rather ordinary light heavyweight Joey Maxim and only managed majority and split decisions over him in subsequent rematches. He twice lost to natural light heavyweight Charles (by wide margins in the first fight 73-77, 72-78, and 72-78, and even wider margins in the rematch of 70-80, 66-84, and 67-83, as well as being dropped for a 9 count). He lost to Rex Layne by scores of 2-6, 3-6, 3-6 in a fight in which he was a 4-1 favorite. Look, when you are that cleanly outboxed by Rex Layne there is no spot for you on a top ten list. No way. No how. Walcott even lost to 11-15-1 Johnny Allen. Who?????

What did Walcott ever do on the positive side of the ledger to draw our attention? One thing: he became (at that time) the oldest heavyweight champion. Interesting fact, but hardly one that carries you way up the list of all-time greats (otherwise Foreman would be the grestest). What were Walcott's notable wins? He had one: that seventh round one-punch knockout of Ezzard Charles. His first fight with Louis was noticed only because it was so surprising that a fighter with Walcott's record could do so well against the legend. But we all kow the score there. Yes, Walcott was boxing well against Rocky Marciano. Boxing well against Marciano is not magic.

That's the worst part about this list. But it gets hardly better after fixing this grand error. There are other grand errors. Larry Holmes at number 14? Taken by itself, this ranking makes the list illegitimate as a serious contribution to the discussion (combined with the Walcott ranking and one's head swim). I rank Holmes at number 2, and while that may be too high, at least I'm in the ballpark of reasonable interpretation of the historical record. Number 14? Get outta here!

Finally, what on earth is Rocky Marciano doing way up there? This guy was reportedly out-hustled by Tex Lowry and Roland LaStarza. He struggled against Jersey Joe Walcott for 12 rounds before finding the punch to end Walcott's one successful title defense reign.
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Old 09-11-2009, 09:06 PM   #23
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Default Re: TOP 20 Heavyweights NEW LIST

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Originally Posted by MrMarvel View Post
Ok, here comes a rant. Sorry...

Yes, of course, giving Walcott the number 4 spot makes no sense. But then finding a spot for Walcott in the top 10 makes no sense, either.

The problem for Walcott devotees is that Walcott is neither good enough nor did anything deserving of a top 10 ranking.

Do people really believe that Walcott would beat any of the following in a fight in which both were on top of their game: Muhammad Ali, Larry Holmes, George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, or Rocky Marciano?

We know he lost to the last three names. Properly trained and motivated, even a badly faded Joe Louis clobbered Walcott. Ezzard Charles twice defeated him by wide margins. Yes, Walcott caught lightning in a bottle one night, but Ezzard was in his 76th fight and, as a light heavyweight long fighting as a heavyweight, his vulnerability to a clean shot was understandable. (I hear tell he recover his old form in the fourth encounter.) Marciano knocked out Walcott with a single punch. Twice.

Let's be honest: Walcott's record is miserable. He lost 18 times against 51 wins. Of those 18 losses, six were by way of knockout. He was knocked out by Abe Simon, Abe Ettore, and Tiger Jack Fox. Fox whipped Walcott on points in the rematch. Walcott lost to tough but rather ordinary light heavyweight Joey Maxim and only managed majority and split decisions over him in subsequent rematches. He twice lost to natural light heavyweight Charles (by wide margins in the first fight 73-77, 72-78, and 72-78, and even wider margins in the rematch of 70-80, 66-84, and 67-83, as well as being dropped for a 9 count). He lost to Rex Layne by scores of 2-6, 3-6, 3-6 in a fight in which he was a 4-1 favorite. Look, when you are that cleanly outboxed by Rex Layne there is no spot for you on a top ten list. No way. No how. Walcott even lost to 11-15-1 Johnny Allen. Who?????

What did Walcott ever do on the positive side of the ledger to draw our attention? One thing: he became (at that time) the oldest heavyweight champion. Interesting fact, but hardly one that carries you way up the list of all-time greats (otherwise Foreman would be the grestest). What were Walcott's notable wins? He had one: that seventh round one-punch knockout of Ezzard Charles. His first fight with Louis was noticed only because it was so surprising that a fighter with Walcott's record could do so well against the legend. But we all kow the score there. Yes, Walcott was boxing well against Rocky Marciano. Boxing well against Marciano is not magic.

That's the worst part about this list. But it gets hardly better after fixing this grand error. There are other grand errors. Larry Holmes at number 14? Taken by itself, this ranking makes the list illegitimate as a serious contribution to the discussion (combined with the Walcott ranking and one's head swim). I rank Holmes at number 2, and while that may be too high, at least I'm in the ballpark of reasonable interpretation of the historical record. Number 14? Get outta here!

Finally, what on earth is Rocky Marciano doing way up there? This guy was reportedly out-hustled by Tex Lowry and Roland LaStarza. He struggled against Jersey Joe Walcott for 12 rounds before finding the punch to end Walcott's one successful title defense reign.

I already explained in a previous post why I rate Holmes at 14, it was a choice of lowering Johnson and Jeffires and I could not rate Holmes over Tyson because I dont see any version of Holmes beating Tyson with the right hand vulnerability Holmes showed. Also Larry avoided the best of his time and never unified the crown. It amazes me how so many smart fight people overlook these points. Holmes avoided Page, Dokes,Weaver rematch,Thomas,Coetzee and would not rematch Witherspoon or WILLIAMS. Should I rate Holmes over Johnson or Jeffires who fought the best of there era, It troubled me.

Walcott on the other hand I said was erratic but he beat Joe Louis in the 1st fight and boxed a masterpeice in the 2nd fight until he got ****y and got caught in a 6 peice Killer combo by the best power/punching Heavyweight I have ever seen. Walcott was erratic as I stated but he did fight some tough and avoided black fighters of the era and beat them...some of his victories were over Jimmy Bivens,Elmer Ray,Lee Q Murry,Harold Johnson,Curtis Sheppard,and Ezzard Charles and his KO in 7 over Charles was one of the best one punch KO's I have ever seen. He also beat Joe Baski,Omelio Agramonte, Ollie Tandberg, Lee Oma and Hein Ten Hoff and beat Joey Maxim 2 times and when he beat the avoided Elmer Ray, Ray was on a 49 fight win streak with 44 KO's...Walcott was sandwiched between Louis and Marciano a tough task, but I think he acquitted himself very well and came close to winning and I think that man had the style to upset many of the best on a good night.

.Like I said before my lists have changed from 4-20 everytime I do them because in reality it is differcult to merge the era' and be fair to all of them and come up with a top 10 and the only current fighter in for consideration is Holyfield because his better days are behind him. When the Klitxcko's careers are done I will have to look again but it is hard to rate so many fighters and not be fair.

My criteria is DID they fight the best of there time ( and I lowered Dempsey because of Wills even though it was not his choice) did they defend against the best and did they rematch tough fights.Also I try and take into consideration the different era, training methods and rd distance of the time and various era's JJWalcott to me was a perfect example of a fighter who did not have a perfect start. Had to raise a family of 7, work and fight. Did not have the best nutrition or connections early on like Foreman,Ali,Louis,Marciano,Dempsey,Frazier,Lewis,Holmes,Holyfield, all had strong management and early enough backing and emerged from it all a great fighter....In his case I will make an exception to his record and some early losses...I still think he was a beast and think he would be the spoiler of the Heavyweight group and for this reason I place him high, and by the way he beat Johnny Allen in a rematch.

I laugh when some people make a list and think it more than just an opinion of what syle of fighter beats another. I will be honest I change my list and opinions quite often, my top 3 is Louis, Marciano,Ali and that will stay the same but the rest is hard and will constantly change depending on how I feel about a fighter, the era and the merging of the era's but Walcott is my favorite Style fighter boxer/puncher..good feet...acurate power

Last edited by Bummy Davis; 09-11-2009 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 09-11-2009, 09:33 PM   #24
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Default Re: TOP 20 Heavyweights NEW LIST

I'd interchange Walcott and Holmes basically. I can understand someone having Holmes at the bottom of the 10 but not outside. I wouldn't have Walcott in the 10 myself, but he'd make 10 - 15. I have Dempsey outside the 10 but many don't of course. Ali i have unhesitatingly at 1 but would accept Louis there. Marciano i have about 5 but he was of course never beaten. Ali outside the 2 tho isn't for me.

Interesting and provoking Bummy

Any chance of Page swapping out Quarry?

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Old 09-11-2009, 10:42 PM   #25
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I'd interchange Walcott and Holmes basically. I can understand someone having Holmes at the bottom of the 10 but not outside. I wouldn't have Walcott in the 10 myself, but he'd make 10 - 15. I have Dempsey outside the 10 but many don't of course. Ali i have unhesitatingly at 1 but would accept Louis there. Marciano i have about 5 but he was of course never beaten. Ali outside the 2 tho isn't for me.

Interesting and provoking Bummy

Any chance of Page swapping out Quarry?

LOL, Ive been hearing how good Lyle and Shavers and Mac Foster were on ESB and how hard they hit and I remember going to the Garden back in the day to go see Jerry get killed by 24-0 24KO's 6"3 + Mac Foster but Quarry prevailed to my shock, then Undefeated Prison Beast Lyle and Jerry owned him and Don Kings Heavyweight (who I saw starch Ellis in one)Shavers the Killer but Jerry went at him and took him out after a nice exchange.....I had a lot of excitement and he his 1st fight against Frazier was nothing to be embarissed by, the Ali fights the 1st was stopped by a cut Quick and he was outclassed in the 2nd fight with both men but look at who they were. I think is subjective and fun...as I stated my opinions will change and it is all subjective but for today,Louis, Marciano,Walcott and Quarry are smiling where ever they are and are saying "Bummy Davis, Right On"

By the way I did it so fast I left out Gene Tunney and not a mention

Last edited by Bummy Davis; 09-11-2009 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 09-12-2009, 12:44 AM   #26
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Default Re: TOP 20 Heavyweights NEW LIST

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Originally Posted by MrMarvel View Post
. Properly trained and motivated, even a badly faded Joe Louis clobbered Walcott.
Now we know who watched those fights.

Quote:
Finally, what on earth is Rocky Marciano doing way up there? This guy was reportedly out-hustled by Tex Lowry and Roland LaStarza. He struggled against Jersey Joe Walcott for 12 rounds before finding the punch to end Walcott's one successful title defense reign.
You have Holmes at #2 but having Rocky there is troubling to you? Out-hustled? Nice choice of words. Didn't lose to Lowry (While it's reported by his friend Nicky Sylvester that he was ill with the flue) but gave a bad performance and the LaStarza fight was close. That's Rocky's only SD win. Not even a loss and against a good fighter early in his career.

I guess that means Liston can't be a Top 3-10 HW having lost to Marshall early on. How about Frazier for having trouble with Bonavena? Foreman having issues with Peralta? Ali barely escaping a decision with Doug Jones (Controversial decision)?

You make me laugh sir.
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Old 09-12-2009, 05:35 AM   #27
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tunney is on my list - top 15. he was smarter than most ATG's and very hard to beat - only 1 loss on points to Harry Greb (fought 5x) with 80 wins. he adapted his strategy for different fighting styles. very smart fighter, didn't fight a peak dempsey but had great footwork
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Old 09-12-2009, 07:14 AM   #28
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Default Re: TOP 20 Heavyweights NEW LIST

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I hate to say it but my rating change from 4 to 20 very often...I know Holmes is low but if I think Johnson and Jeffires are close so I package them. Lately I have been focusing on the old group again and do I put Holmes before that group. Charles is close to Walcott but I just think Joe had a better in and out counter/punching style and had power and craftyness as well, I see him upsetting some of the top guys (as he almost did vs Marciano and Louis) I think he could beat the boxers and the punchers...Joe was erratic but I love his style and think he could be put into any era and cause havok.. I never rated Wills but because I have Dempsey and Langford high I give him the respect...Joe Louis is unmovable to me and I have a personal favorite in Marciano (love his style heart,conditioning,power) and think he is underated..Marciano career was a snapshot of perfection but he only had 6 defences and got out with 3-4 fights left close to prime) I know it would meet with criticisim but WE all have our own personal favorites...Ali was great and he could be number 2 but I feel he gets overated by some and top 3 is top 3. I was watching Quarry fights and was at the Garden for his fights against Foster, Shavers,Lyle and saw him at the collisium vs Joe Alexander...I hear some much worship over Lyle,Shavers,Foster and Quarry dominated them so I gave him some props...Is he top 20...hard to judge but he made my list this time....I have always had trouble with making the list beyond 10 and leaving some out but I think a solution would be to double up some...head to head is hard to do when you are blending era's. In the heavyweight division alone...Training weights and steriods have changed a lot in that division so I try and merge ( example if Lenno Lewis was fighting in the 40's and if he had to train for 15 rds under the conditioning of the time how would he look and if Jim Jeffires was fighting 12 rds instead of 20 would he be training more for a fast start at a furious pace like Louis, Marciano and Ali's era era in the 40.s 50's and 60's.....This is very hard and it is not written in stone....just fun and a mutable opinion that will not mean much anywhere but for us guys at ESB for a day or so....by the way how have you been Chris...
I've been fine, thanks. What about you?

My list is not written in stone, but it would be something like this:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Lewis
4. Marciano
5. Holmes
6. Frazier
7. Holyfield
8. Tyson
9. Foreman
10.Liston
11.Johnson
12.Jeffries
13.Dempsey
14.Wills
15.Walcott
16.Charles
17.W. Klitschko (if he retires today, might have to put more thought into it)
18.Patterson
19.Tunney
20.Schmeling
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Old 09-12-2009, 01:23 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
I've been fine, thanks. What about you?

My list is not written in stone, but it would be something like this:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Lewis
4. Marciano
5. Holmes
6. Frazier
7. Holyfield
8. Tyson
9. Foreman
10.Liston
11.Johnson
12.Jeffries
13.Dempsey
14.Wills
15.Walcott
16.Charles
17.W. Klitschko (if he retires today, might have to put more thought into it)
18.Patterson
19.Tunney
20.Schmeling
Very Good list......
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Old 09-12-2009, 03:00 PM   #30
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Default Re: TOP 20 Heavyweights NEW LIST

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
I've been fine, thanks. What about you?

My list is not written in stone, but it would be something like this:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Lewis
4. Marciano
5. Holmes
6. Frazier
7. Holyfield
8. Tyson
9. Foreman
10.Liston
11.Johnson
12.Jeffries
13.Dempsey
14.Wills
15.Walcott
16.Charles
17.W. Klitschko (if he retires today, might have to put more thought into it)
18.Patterson
19.Tunney
20.Schmeling
Not bad at all. Johnson is way too low, though.
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