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Old 09-12-2009, 11:06 PM   #31
Seamus
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Default Re: Does WK have an all-time great right hand ?

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Originally Posted by Beeston Brawler View Post
I don't think Vitali will get into the Hall of Fame either.

He is certainly good enough to do so, in terms of H2H ability, but his resume simply isn't there.
So Baer, Braddock, Choynski and Johansson get in, but no Wlad or Vitali. I want some of what you're smoking.
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Old 09-12-2009, 11:18 PM   #32
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Default Re: Does WK have an all-time great right hand ?

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Originally Posted by rm36 View Post
But, how many 250 lb. men did Marciano knock out ?
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Old 09-12-2009, 11:20 PM   #33
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Default Re: Does WK have an all-time great right hand ?

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The words ALL TIME GREAT simply cannot be associated with Wladimir Klitschko.
Agreed! he's mediocre at best.
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Old 09-12-2009, 11:22 PM   #34
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Default Re: Does WK have an all-time great right hand ?

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Then I suppose you don't appreciate the art part of hitting without getting hit? Most of Wlad's opponents back off once the feel his power. Its not all his fault.

Despite not going for early Ko's, Wlad KO% is among the best in history.
considering the fact that he has fought has beens and c-rate fighters...yes.
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Old 09-12-2009, 11:53 PM   #35
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Default Re: Does WK have an all-time great right hand ?

Yes, he has an all time great right hand.

When Wladimir was first being hyped by HBO, I noticed how great his offense was. I use to think something was missing, and was not completely sold on his being the next big thing. Then he was stopped by Sanders, but liked how he kept getting up and coming toward Sanders. It made me feel he really was a tough guy, but was unable to avoid the clean lefts that Sanders was landing. I told people he would be back.

Then he was stopped by Brewster, and a lot of that has to be attributed to exhaustion. After that, he looked quite a bit short of greaness against Williamson. I thought he may get shoved aside and forgotten.

Then the fight with Peter was made. I picked Wlad because I thought he had all the advantages stylistically. The only thing I got to show for it was $10 from a friend that thought Peter was too much. HBO must have thought Wlad was finished, because they chose to only air a prefight piece on Sam Peter. Wladimir defeated Peter, but something was different.

Wladimir Klitschko had gone from being someone with one of best offenses I'd ever seen, to a cautious and fragile looking fighter. Maybe what I once sensed was missing was a lack of respect for his opponent's ability.

Forgive me guys. Drinking and rambling with nothing really pertaining to his right hand. Not going to guarantee I'll mention it after this either.

I really wonder how he will fare against Eddie Chambers. I've not watched a lot of Chambers, but it seem he has a quick one-two. Chambers quick right hand down the middle could pose some problems for Wlad. I'm not saying Chambers should be the betting favorite, but don't be surprised if he catches W. Klitschko with that punch on the button. I just thought the proposed Chambers fight was relative because I think Chambers right might be Wlad's undoing, and this is thread about Wlad's right hand.
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Old 09-13-2009, 02:42 AM   #36
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Default Re: Does WK have an all-time great right hand ?

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Originally Posted by rm36 View Post
But, how many 250 lb. men did Marciano knock out ?
His KO and/or stoppage in the ring list is an impressive one of 250 lb victims, huh? [Pedanticly accepting the 250 lb cut-off point ]

Marcus McIntyre - 38 years old
Carlos Monroe - "The Shock Absorber"
Eli Dixon
Everett Martin - 20-39 lifetime
Paea Wolfgramm - makes Valuev look like Ali
Derrick Jefferson
Hasim Rahman - 36 years old


Even little Rock with a size disadvantage (rather than Wlad's ample stature) might have a decent chance with that stellar group, no?
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Old 09-13-2009, 04:10 AM   #37
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Default Re: Does WK have an all-time great right hand ?

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Originally Posted by Brit Sillynanny View Post
His KO and/or stoppage in the ring list is an impressive one of 250 lb victims, huh? [Pedanticly accepting the 250 lb cut-off point ]

Marcus McIntyre - 38 years old
Carlos Monroe - "The Shock Absorber"
Eli Dixon
Everett Martin - 20-39 lifetime
Paea Wolfgramm - makes Valuev look like Ali
Derrick Jefferson
Hasim Rahman - 36 years old


Even little Rock with a size disadvantage (rather than Wlad's ample stature) might have a decent chance with that stellar group, no?
Well I don't want to be pedantic. How many 250 lb. men did Rocky knock out, how many 240 lb men, how many 230 lb men, how many 220 lb men, how many 210 lb men ? How many were even over 200 lbs ?
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:36 AM   #38
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Default Re: Does WK have an all-time great right hand ?

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Originally Posted by rm36 View Post
Well I don't want to be pedantic. How many 250 lb. men did Rocky knock out, how many 240 lb men, how many 230 lb men, how many 220 lb men, how many 210 lb men ? How many were even over 200 lbs ?
I did say i was being pedantic and included the little nodding smilie ya know, man?


[Pedanticly accepting the 250 lb cut-off point ]


... as I was more than certain that Wlad hasn't knocked out ANYONE of merit over 250 lbs either (not merely Marciano - and pretty much it would take knocking out (a past peak) Lennox Lewis in his last fight to find any one that is (still) decent with that kind of size anyway).


The real point isn't to deny your issue with Rock's size and the size of his many victims, or the size of fighters generally from that era. I'm certainly not gonna project Rock's success in his era (especially as he didn't meet any prime ATGs either) to be replicable against today's considerably heavier/larger fighters (but I will also not entertain any easy comparison between eras so far apart as you can't logically denigrate those that came first and still have those that came later - i.e., you can't mitigate an Ali (for example) when without him you essentially lose the biggest influence on the fighters that came after (like LL). In all fields, the current success is built upon the shoulders of those who came first. So, the chicken and the egg argument (so to speak) becomes an obstacle to any meaningful comparative.

While my comment was mostly in jest it can also serve to point out that if you are going to denigrate the much smaller Rock's ability to KO Klit's 250 lb opponents (as horribly weak as that list is - and including all of the pedestrian fighters/athletes below that weight) because he didn't fight any, then, that should open the door to the albeit completely separate argument (which I find equally plausible) that using Klit's ****py opponents as a yardstick of historical excellence when he almost always was the larger more conditioned fighter is somewhat less than convincing.

There is a substantive argument that an abundance of equal sized big men of far better talent exist currently outside of boxing that he has not fought (just as Rock never fought any mega heavyweights). My conjecture is that Wlad's "success" may be even less impressive with the passage of time and the benefit of hindsight. What has to be considered a great right hand today is as much a product of being one of the largest heavyweights as it is of any laudable special athleticism or talent. We know Tyson had a powerful right hand as it was delivered by a guy barely 5'10" and often weighing around 220. I find it a less impressive physical accomplishment when it takes a 6'6 1/2" 240 man to deliver the same thing.

When the generations pass and we've had the opportunity to see many TALENTED athletes standing 6'6 and larger in the ring ply their trade it will be easier to assert or deny the status of Wlad's right hand. Right now it is sort of like everyone decent over 200 lbs and 6 ft quit boxing to take up elsewhere and the only big guys left are paraplegics, fat guys, mediocre, and vision impaired athletes so that the lone 6'6 1/2" guy with all four limbs not wearing glasses sure seems rather invincible.

On the other hand, if Wlad has an all-time great right hand then I guess Corrie Sanders will have proponents demanding equal status for his left hand.

I suspect, unfair or not, the historical assessment of the "greatness" of his right hand will be lessened by the inescapable deficiencies so notable and glaring in the rest of his game.
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Old 09-13-2009, 04:03 PM   #39
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Default Re: Does WK have an all-time great right hand ?

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Originally Posted by Brit Sillynanny View Post
I did say i was being pedantic and included the little nodding smilie ya know, man?


[Pedanticly accepting the 250 lb cut-off point ]
How foolish of me not to notice so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit Sillynanny View Post
... as I was more than certain that Wlad hasn't knocked out ANYONE of merit over 250 lbs either (not merely Marciano - and pretty much it would take knocking out (a past peak) Lennox Lewis in his last fight to find any one that is (still) decent with that kind of size anyway).

The real point isn't to deny your issue with Rock's size and the size of his many victims, or the size of fighters generally from that era. I'm certainly not gonna project Rock's success in his era (especially as he didn't meet any prime ATGs either) to be replicable against today's considerably heavier/larger fighters (but I will also not entertain any easy comparison between eras so far apart as you can't logically denigrate those that came first and still have those that came later - i.e., you can't mitigate an Ali (for example) when without him you essentially lose the biggest influence on the fighters that came after (like LL). In all fields, the current success is built upon the shoulders of those who came first. So, the chicken and the egg argument (so to speak) becomes an obstacle to any meaningful comparative.
My intention wasn't to denigrate the achievements of Marciano. When I started this thread, the purpose wasn't to consider how good an individual's right hand was for their era. What I wanted to do was consider, without focusing on eras, whether Klitschko's right hand could be considered just as effective as all time greats. It would be like considering right hands in a H2H sense. When someone says he doesn't have the great devastating KO like Marciano/Walcott, I feel we need to add necessary context to it, that Klitschko's right hand led to the knock outs of much larger men. I notice that this era argument isn't used nearly as much for someone like Joe Louis.


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Originally Posted by Brit Sillynanny View Post
While my comment was mostly in jest it can also serve to point out that if you are going to denigrate the much smaller Rock's ability to KO Klit's 250 lb opponents (as horribly weak as that list is - and including all of the pedestrian fighters/athletes below that weight) because he didn't fight any, then, that should open the door to the albeit completely separate argument (which I find equally plausible) that using Klit's ****py opponents as a yardstick of historical excellence when he almost always was the larger more conditioned fighter is somewhat less than convincing.
Feel free to use more than one sentence now and again. I happen to think that the likes of Samuel Peter, Chris Byrd (x2), Calvin Brock, Sultan Ibragimov, Lamon Brewster, McCline, Barrett aren't terrible opponents. Rocky certainly has impressive names on his list, granted the ones always mentioned may have belonged in a retirement home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit Sillynanny View Post
There is a substantive argument that an abundance of equal sized big men of far better talent exist currently outside of boxing that he has not fought (just as Rock never fought any mega heavyweights). My conjecture is that Wlad's "success" may be even less impressive with the passage of time and the benefit of hindsight. What has to be considered a great right hand today is as much a product of being one of the largest heavyweights as it is of any laudable special athleticism or talent. We know Tyson had a powerful right hand as it was delivered by a guy barely 5'10" and often weighing around 220. I find it a less impressive physical accomplishment when it takes a 6'6 1/2" 240 man to deliver the same thing.
You've lost me here. His right hand is great as a result of his size. I thought technique, balance, and muscle fibers dictated this. But now I should believe that it's mostly to do with great size ? How do we explain fighters like Lance Whitaker, Nicolay Valuev, Jameel McCline- all of whom are of equal or greater size than Klitschko, but none of whom possess a right hand like his. I've seen a bunch of 240+ fighters who i wouldn't say had better power than some other 220 pound fighters. I don't feel more impressed by the 220 pound fighter. We know any man around 200 pounds who can punch very well can hurt even the biggest fighters. Don't you feel as though you're denigrating Klitschko now ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit Sillynanny View Post
When the generations pass and we've had the opportunity to see many TALENTED athletes standing 6'6 and larger in the ring ply their trade it will be easier to assert or deny the status of Wlad's right hand. Right now it is sort of like everyone decent over 200 lbs and 6 ft quit boxing to take up elsewhere and the only big guys left are paraplegics, fat guys, mediocre, and vision impaired athletes so that the lone 6'6 1/2" guy with all four limbs not wearing glasses sure seems rather invincible.
Once again you go too far in trying to criticize the fighters of this era. They may not be the most talented group, but paraplegics and blind ? You quickly forget that Marciano was thought to have fought in a relatively weak era as well.
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Old 09-13-2009, 04:16 PM   #40
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Default Re: Does WK have an all-time great right hand ?

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Originally Posted by rekcutnevets View Post
Yes, he has an all time great right hand.

When Wladimir was first being hyped by HBO, I noticed how great his offense was. I use to think something was missing, and was not completely sold on his being the next big thing. Then he was stopped by Sanders, but liked how he kept getting up and coming toward Sanders. It made me feel he really was a tough guy, but was unable to avoid the clean lefts that Sanders was landing. I told people he would be back.

Then he was stopped by Brewster, and a lot of that has to be attributed to exhaustion. After that, he looked quite a bit short of greaness against Williamson. I thought he may get shoved aside and forgotten.

Then the fight with Peter was made. I picked Wlad because I thought he had all the advantages stylistically. The only thing I got to show for it was $10 from a friend that thought Peter was too much. HBO must have thought Wlad was finished, because they chose to only air a prefight piece on Sam Peter. Wladimir defeated Peter, but something was different.

Wladimir Klitschko had gone from being someone with one of best offenses I'd ever seen, to a cautious and fragile looking fighter. Maybe what I once sensed was missing was a lack of respect for his opponent's ability.

Forgive me guys. Drinking and rambling with nothing really pertaining to his right hand. Not going to guarantee I'll mention it after this either.

I really wonder how he will fare against Eddie Chambers. I've not watched a lot of Chambers, but it seem he has a quick one-two. Chambers quick right hand down the middle could pose some problems for Wlad. I'm not saying Chambers should be the betting favorite, but don't be surprised if he catches W. Klitschko with that punch on the button. I just thought the proposed Chambers fight was relative because I think Chambers right might be Wlad's undoing, and this is thread about Wlad's right hand.
Drunk or not, that was an interesting read, thanks.

On Chambers: i think he's a very skilled boxer, but at the same time he lacks the power and pressure to be a big threat to Wlad. Just like Byrd, he probably matches up very bad. Not the smartest move of their management.

Here you can see a bit on Chambers:

BORKED
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Old 09-13-2009, 04:52 PM   #41
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Default Re: Does WK have an all-time great right hand ?

Regardless of the sorry-ass crop of fighters at heavyweight today, I have seen vast improvement in the skill department in Wlad Klit since Manny Steward has taken over the realm of control in the Wlad Klit camp......... Klit has at times appeared timid, but still effective enough to win big on points, otherwise, he has been a killer who hammers his foe down and out like a real true champion........ I cannot blame or knock Wlad Klit.... His career has proven to be highly successful..... That also applies to older bro Vitali as well.... Great guys..........

MR.BILL
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Old 09-13-2009, 05:03 PM   #42
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Default Re: Does WK have an all-time great right hand ?

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Regardless of the sorry-ass crop of fighters at heavyweight today, I have seen vast improvement in the skill department in Wlad Klit since Manny Steward has taken over the realm of control in the Wlad Klit camp......... Klit has at times appeared timid, but still effective enough to win big on points, otherwise, he has been a killer who hammers his foe down and out like a real true champion........ I cannot blame or knock Wlad Klit.... His career has proven to be highly successful..... That also applies to older bro Vitali as well.... Great guys..........

MR.BILL
I'm not sure if I've seen an improvement in his skill, perhaps ring smarts and cautiousness, knowing now what his weaknesses are.

The fact is that the majority of the boxing fans would probably rather see their heavyweight champions fighting like this:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Than like this:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

But I understand that he can't risk another loss like in the Sanders and Brewster fights.
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Old 09-13-2009, 05:18 PM   #43
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Default Re: Does WK have an all-time great right hand ?

Well, the fact that W.K. has been starched real good 2X by "Sanders and Brewster" may very well be a psychological blow to Klit's psych in which he'll prolly never fully recover from, thus, making him box much more cautiously for the remainder of his career....... At any rate, I see changes and a newfound plan-B approach, so that's considered advancement to me.......

MR.BILL
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Old 09-13-2009, 06:41 PM   #44
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Default Re: Does WK have an all-time great right hand ?

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Drunk or not, that was an interesting read, thanks.

On Chambers: i think he's a very skilled boxer, but at the same time he lacks the power and pressure to be a big threat to Wlad. Just like Byrd, he probably matches up very bad. Not the smartest move of their management.

Here you can see a bit on Chambers:
Thanks for the kind words, and the footage.

I'd not seen Chambers against a much taller fighter. Chambers was struggling to find his range there, and that does not bode well for his chances against Wlad.
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Old 09-13-2009, 06:50 PM   #45
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Default Re: Does WK have an all-time great right hand ?

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Thanks for the kind words, and the footage.

I'd not seen Chambers against a much taller fighter. Chambers was struggling to find his range there, and that does not bode well for his chances against Wlad.
He did pretty much trash Dimitrenko though which was surprising to many.

I think Chambers is a better aggressor than Byrd but he still wouldn't do very well against Wladimir.
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