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Old 09-15-2007, 09:32 AM   #1
Luigi1985
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Default Frazier after the Quarry- fight

I saw yesterday afternoon the great Frazier- Quarry- fight again, what a fight, both fighting toe-to-toe and throwing bombs from every angle. But I remember that "Smokin Joe" had a very good handspeed, much better than later in his career (Ali- fights, Foreman- fights). Do you agree with me or not? What´s your opinion?
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:53 AM   #2
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Default Re: Frazier after the Quarry- fight

I think when you watch a lot of Frazier fights before the first Ali bout, you see several things, like hanspeed, he lost pretty quickly. People always talk about Ali not being in his prime for their first fight, but it's always one-sided - Nobody ever mentions that Frazier wasn't at his best either. Probably because it works with the idea that Ali is the greatest boxer of all-time.

I'm not saying Frazier was as diminished as Ali was in their first fight, but it's a misconception that Frazier was at his absolute peak and Ali was far past his prime. I don't think either fighter was in their prime (Though it was Frazier's best performance), and whilst Ali was further away from his prime, I think more people should try to understand that Frazier was past his physical prime too.

If Ali and Frazier were both 10/10 in their primes, I'd say for the first fight between them, Ali was around 8/10 and Frazier was 9/10.




So yeah, I think Frazier did lose some handspeed.
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:56 AM   #3
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Default Re: Frazier after the Quarry- fight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
I think when you watch a lot of Frazier fights before the first Ali bout, you see several things, like hanspeed, he lost pretty quickly. People always talk about Ali not being in his prime for their first fight, but it's always one-sided - Nobody ever mentions that Frazier wasn't at his best either. Probably because it works with the idea that Ali is the greatest boxer of all-time.

I'm not saying Frazier was as diminished as Ali was in their first fight, but it's a misconception that Frazier was at his absolute peak and Ali was far past his prime. I don't think either fighter was in their prime (Though it was Frazier's best performance), and whilst Ali was further away from his prime, I think more people should try to understand that Frazier was past his physical prime too.

If Ali and Frazier were both 10/10 in their primes, I'd say for the first fight between them, Ali was around 8/10 and Frazier was 9/10.




So yeah, I think Frazier did lose some handspeed.

I totally agree with your post, I see it the same way. Fighters who have such an intensive fighting style like in this case Frazier (Marciano is another good example) never stay that long on top with their skills, they lose them pretty quickly...
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:39 AM   #4
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Default Re: Frazier after the Quarry- fight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
I think when you watch a lot of Frazier fights before the first Ali bout, you see several things, like hanspeed, he lost pretty quickly. People always talk about Ali not being in his prime for their first fight, but it's always one-sided - Nobody ever mentions that Frazier wasn't at his best either. Probably because it works with the idea that Ali is the greatest boxer of all-time.

I'm not saying Frazier was as diminished as Ali was in their first fight, but it's a misconception that Frazier was at his absolute peak and Ali was far past his prime. I don't think either fighter was in their prime (Though it was Frazier's best performance), and whilst Ali was further away from his prime, I think more people should try to understand that Frazier was past his physical prime too.
This is very interesting and something I've wondered about myself. When do you consider Frazier to have demonstrated his physical peak? Was it a relatively obscure performance like Zyglewicz or Ramos, his 15 round rematch with Bonavena, the unification bout with Ellis, the first championship win over Mathis, or some other performance between Mathis and the FOTC?

Likewise, Schmeling's best performance was probably Louis I, but the 12 rounder where he nearly took out Uzcudun may have been his peak showing.

So I am sincerely curious about when you discern Frazier as being at the peak of his performance capacity.
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:56 AM   #5
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Default Re: Frazier after the Quarry- fight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
This is very interesting and something I've wondered about myself. When do you consider Frazier to have demonstrated his physical peak? Was it a relatively obscure performance like Zyglewicz or Ramos, his 15 round rematch with Bonavena, the unification bout with Ellis, the first championship win over Mathis, or some other performance between Mathis and the FOTC?

Likewise, Schmeling's best performance was probably Louis I, but the 12 rounder where he nearly took out Uzcudun may have been his peak showing.

So I am sincerely curious about when you discern Frazier as being at the peak of his performance capacity.
I thought Frazier looked at his absolute peak and sharpest in either the FOTC or the Foster destruction. He looked unstopable in the Foster fight, but didn't have to dig as deep and show as much as he did in his fight with Ali. It was only after that fight when he declined fast.

Incidentally, i thought he looked pretty good in his rematch with Quarry in 1974, much better than in '73. But maybe that had something to do with the class difference between Quarry and Foreman.
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:57 AM   #6
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Default Re: Frazier after the Quarry- fight

Frazier's relative slowness in the Ali fight probably had something to do with the hypertension that he was suffering from at the time. Frazier's prolonged stay in the hospital after the FOTC actually was in order to get treatment that he should have had before the fight, but which would have messed up with the dates.

I think 1969 was probably Frazier's absolute peak, but he was still very much in his prime in 1971. The FOTC took a lot out of him, and the inactivity/age and war with Ron Stander from 1971-1973 took a lot more. He still had a lot left against Foreman, but I think that fight took a lot more out of him, particularly mentally.

That said, he was still a world class boxer in 1974 and 1975. Even against Foreman in 1976, he could probably have beaten most of the ranked heavyweights in the world at the time.
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Old 09-15-2007, 12:35 PM   #7
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Default Re: Frazier after the Quarry- fight

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
I thought Frazier looked at his absolute peak and sharpest in either the FOTC or the Foster destruction. He looked unstopable in the Foster fight, but didn't have to dig as deep and show as much as he did in his fight with Ali. It was only after that fight when he declined fast.

Incidentally, i thought he looked pretty good in his rematch with Quarry in 1974, much better than in '73. But maybe that had something to do with the class difference between Quarry and Foreman.
Frazier/Quarry II was apparently the result of an unexpected change in strategy engineered by Futch and Frazier. I have not seen it in it's entirety for many years, but Fried's profile of Futch in Corner Men quotes Futch as reminding Frazier that Quarry had appoximately the same height and reach as Joe, and that Smoke could stand upright, box Jerry more, and throw Quarry off by surprising him with right hands. In Fried's book, Eddie is quoted as claiming this change in tactics resulted in Frazier's easiest fight. (I can't imagine how any fight of Joe's could be easier than Zyglewicz, but Eddie Futch was certainly entitled to his ego.)

If Frazier's peak was before the FOTC, then Foster might be an excellent candidate.
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Old 09-15-2007, 02:44 PM   #8
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Default Re: Frazier after the Quarry- fight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
This is very interesting and something I've wondered about myself. When do you consider Frazier to have demonstrated his physical peak? Was it a relatively obscure performance like Zyglewicz or Ramos, his 15 round rematch with Bonavena, the unification bout with Ellis, the first championship win over Mathis, or some other performance between Mathis and the FOTC?

Likewise, Schmeling's best performance was probably Louis I, but the 12 rounder where he nearly took out Uzcudun may have been his peak showing.

So I am sincerely curious about when you discern Frazier as being at the peak of his performance capacity.
Like other people have mentioned, I think it'd have to be against Foster. It's easy to look at such a dominant win and put it down to Frazier being an awful styles match-up for Foster, and whilst that is probably true, he looked physically better than I've ever seen him on that night too. He had better body movement, accuracy and handspeed than any other fight.

That was Frazier at his absolute best, physically.
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Old 09-15-2007, 05:18 PM   #9
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Default Re: Frazier after the Quarry- fight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luigi1985
I saw yesterday afternoon the great Frazier- Quarry- fight again, what a fight, both fighting toe-to-toe and throwing bombs from every angle. But I remember that "Smokin Joe" had a very good handspeed, much better than later in his career (Ali- fights, Foreman- fights). Do you agree with me or not? What´s your opinion?
He did have good hand speed ,and Quarrys wasnt bad but Jerry fought a stupid fight ,hooking with a hooker.
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Old 09-15-2007, 07:49 PM   #10
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Default Re: Frazier after the Quarry- fight

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Originally Posted by mcvey
He did have good hand speed ,and Quarrys wasnt bad but Jerry fought a stupid fight ,hooking with a hooker.
Well, for two rounds, Quarry actually was outhooking Frazier, but few heavyweights can sustain a 100 punch per round pace for long. (In that first round, Jerry threw around 92 punches to Smoke's 62. 54 of Quarry's shots were hooks, 20 of those hooks to Joe's body.) In starting that aggressively, Jerry sort of committed himself to taking Frazier out quickly, and Joe was coming off the fastest start of his career against Ziggy. Quarry would indeed have been better off countering Frazier early on.
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Old 09-16-2007, 01:47 AM   #11
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Default Re: Frazier after the Quarry- fight

Frazier said before the Foster fight: "I don't know why Bob
wants to fight me."

A finely tuned Frazier probably knew what awaited Foster.
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Old 09-16-2007, 06:04 AM   #12
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Frazier after the Quarry- fight

What did Frazier do better in the Foster/Quarry I fight than in the FOTC?
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Old 09-16-2007, 07:18 AM   #13
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Default Re: Frazier after the Quarry- fight

I thought Frazier looked terrific against Ellis the first time around. Ellis started off alright but you could see by the 3rd round that Frazier's body work was taking its toll as Ellis was dropping his hands to protect his body...this left his head open for Frazier to take him out, which he did! Entertaining fight while it lasted
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Old 09-16-2007, 06:00 PM   #14
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Default Re: Frazier after the Quarry- fight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
I think when you watch a lot of Frazier fights before the first Ali bout, you see several things, like hanspeed, he lost pretty quickly. People always talk about Ali not being in his prime for their first fight, but it's always one-sided - Nobody ever mentions that Frazier wasn't at his best either. Probably because it works with the idea that Ali is the greatest boxer of all-time.

I'm not saying Frazier was as diminished as Ali was in their first fight, but it's a misconception that Frazier was at his absolute peak and Ali was far past his prime. I don't think either fighter was in their prime (Though it was Frazier's best performance), and whilst Ali was further away from his prime, I think more people should try to understand that Frazier was past his physical prime too.

If Ali and Frazier were both 10/10 in their primes, I'd say for the first fight between them, Ali was around 8/10 and Frazier was 9/10.




So yeah, I think Frazier did lose some handspeed.
I disagree,Frazier was coming off his most dominant performance ,[against Foster],had been a pro forjust over 6 years and had fought only 121 rounds ,I dont accept that he was in anything but the best condition of his career,Henry Armstrong whom Frazier s style most closely resembled was still fighting for world title 8 years after turning pro and with a vastly busier schedule.
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Old 09-16-2007, 06:41 PM   #15
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Default Re: Frazier after the Quarry- fight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad Spencer
Well, Frazier wasn't exactly the most durable guy. He had all the heart in the world, but he also had a lot of health problems.
Why wasnt he durable ? He was stopped twice by thunderous punching Foreman ,and retired on his stool with eye damage,in his fight with Ali.
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