Dempsey VS Today's active heavyweights

[C. M. Clay II]

If Dempsey fought in today's era he would breeze through everyone except Wlad. He might have a little trouble with him, but he'll beat him nontheless.

[joe33]

Originally Posted by Street Lethal

I think some of you have an exaggerated opinion of Jack Dempsey.

Scratch that: I know you do.

How do you know that then?,bit big of you to say you know better then any one else here?
By any chance are you a black guy mate?,im sure as **** half the crap rocky marciano and dempsey get is because of there colour,and because they (defintly in dempseys case) are seen as racist or in a bad era,why dont people just admit its this reason.

By the way demspey was tysons fav fighter ever,he hero worshiped the guy,and sorry but ill defintly take the word of tyson over most people on this board,if he says he would be a threat in any era then thats good enough for me,tyson obviously copied parts of jacks style,both were vicious killers in the ring,and both are my 2 fav heavys ever to be honest.

[Maxmomer]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

Defending your title but 6 times in 7 years, is definately a negative checkmark on a champion's career profile. In addition, failing to face top challengers due to their skin color, weakens a resume even more. Lennox Lewis definately fought better opposition and faced every top fighter of his era, while staying active.

He was inactive as a champion but he was very active in the years leading up to it, and given the life he led up to that point and the conditions he lived in I think he was entitled to take it a little easy and try to rake in some cash once he finally made it. Also, everytime he defended the title it was against a very good opponent.

[janitor]

[quote]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

How so? Accept the fact that they are naturally bigger as well as talented, instead of wild swingers like Firpo or old skill less farmerboys like Willard.

They were naturaly bigger up to a point but don't get caried away. A good portion of their vaunted weight advantage was lard. You criticise the skills of Willard and Firpo but to be honest guys like Sam Peter are mediocre talents at best.

Sultan was overweight for a grand total of one fight in his entire career. Big deal.

Sultan has been overweight for every fight of his career. against Briggs for example he had a generous spare tyre.

Sorry, but it looks like you only see what you want to see. He was in great shape in all his other fights and never showed stamina problems.

I think you need your eyes testing. How many fighters from the 30s or 40s or even 80s came into the ring looking like Chagev, Peter or Ibragimov?

Name them.

Peter is simply a wide mother****er. At 244 you could still see his abs. They fight 12 rounds so it's a tactical decision to bulk up a bit to punch harder.

At 244 lbs Peter has a belly. He didn't look all that great at 220 lbs either. No profesional fighter should be coming into the ring in this condition.

Like other people say, guys like Povetkin, S. Ibragimov, Maskaev, Valuev (special case) and others have body types that will never be ripped like a Harold Johnson.

Anybody can get into better shape than these guys. Genetics cannot explain away that much.

Yes some guys are never going to be ripped but nobody needs to come to the ring with a spare tyre. In the 1930s or 50s a contender who fought in this condition would be labeled a freak and grouped with Tony Galento.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by Jack

I don't know why there is such an obssession with physiques. It's nothing like a reflection on talent. In most cases, a fat guy will lack stamina, but because this isn't always true, criticising a boxer for being overweight is strange. if it doesn't affect their fitness, speed or whatever, there is no problem.

I look at Chagaev, Povetkin, Peter etc., and think that despite being flabby, if they were ripped, not one would be a better fighter.

It's just their natural build and it suits their style of fighting. Weight doesn't go hand in hand with talent, so it baffles me whenever we get threads about todays heavyweights and the first few posts are laced with "THEY'RE ALL FAT BASTARDS!".

It's irrelevant unless weight is detrimental to the boxers skills.

You are right up to a point but when people turn around and say that this new generation of superheavyweights had a 40 lb weight advantage on sombody like Dempsey or Marciano you have to ask what you are getting for the 40 lbs. Perhaps verry little.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by tobkhan

You are right with that, on the other hand there is nothing bad about having a physique like Chagaev when it doesn´t have a bad influence on your performance.

My experience is that fighters who come to the ring out of shape get away with it for many years but they eventualy cross a threshold where it catches up with them. James Toney being a case in point.

[Little_Mac]

Originally Posted by Flabby Gut

Don't listen to the left-wing propaganda accussing Dempsey of avoiding black contenders. It is simply not the case.

What does ones placement on the political spectrum have to do with Dempsey and the color line? I consider myself more left wing and i don't think dempsey purposely avoided black fighters. Where are you hearing this?

[janitor]

Originally Posted by tobkhan

Do you think Chagaev, Maskaev and Co are in the league of Toney in terms of beeing out of shape?

No but given their styles the point where it catches up with them is likley to be lower.

[ChrisPontius]

[quote=janitor]

They were naturaly bigger up to a point but don't get caried away. A good portion of their vaunted weight advantage was lard. You criticise the skills of Willard and Firpo but to be honest guys like Sam Peter are mediocre talents at best.

Peter indeed has mediocre skill, though he has improved a lot in his recent outing vs Toney in which he is still lightyears ahead of Firpo.

Sultan has been overweight for every fight of his career. against Briggs for example he had a generous spare tyre.

That is flatout ridiculous. Watch these random pictures from his fight with Briggs:

[IMG]********newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/43002000/jpg/_43002343_ibragimov203.jpg[/IMG]



[IMG]***********.eastsideboxing.com/fotos/SIZE%20DIFFERENCE.jpg[/IMG]


[IMG]***********.eastsideboxing.com/fotos/THE%20BIG%20SULTAN%20VICTORY%201701.jpg[/IMG]



If you think that is a spare tire then you are clearly biased or you also think Marciano carried a spare tire. Check it out:
[IMG]***********.brocktonma.com/bhs/rockyknockout.jpg[/IMG]

I think you need your eyes testing. How many fighters from the 30s or 40s or even 80s came into the ring looking like Chagev, Peter or Ibragimov?

Not many, bigger guys lacked the talent to consistenly beat their smaller counterparts back then.

At 244 lbs Peter has a belly. He didn't look all that great at 220 lbs either. No profesional fighter should be coming into the ring in this condition.

You mean 220lb when he was in the olympics?
That's like saying Ali was a blown up light heavyweight because he fought at that weight in the olympics.
Peter could lose a few pounds but he's a heavy hitter who focuses on heavy shots because he's never gonna be on his toes and box anyway, although he did a reasonable job against Toney.

[IMG]********img215.imageshack.us/img215/3275/samuelpeterbeforeklitscjb8.jpg[/IMG]



[IMG]********img233.imageshack.us/img233/5372/samuelpeterbeforeklitscvk6.jpg[/IMG]


If he's hiding a spare tire then he hides it really well.

Anybody can get into better shape than these guys. Genetics cannot explain away that much.

Refer to the pics that i posted of Sultan. Check again.

Yes some guys are never going to be ripped but nobody needs to come to the ring with a spare tyre. In the 1930s or 50s a contender who fought in this condition would be labeled a freak and grouped with Tony Galento.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't Galento have an, in the eyes of many, very deserved and anticipated title shot and not only that, but managed to floor the champion? And this was not a Neon Leon kind of champion.

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by janitor

You are right up to a point but when people turn around and say that this new generation of superheavyweights had a 40 lb weight advantage on sombody like Dempsey or Marciano you have to ask what you are getting for the 40 lbs. Perhaps verry little.

I think they were referring to Lewis, Bowe and the Klitschko's, who indeed don't have 40lb in weight on them, but rather more like 50-60lb.

[sthomas]

To make it realistic, clone Dempsey and clone today's fighters, then train them all to be boxers. In 25 years, have a tournement with all of them. I bet Dempsey would do pretty darn well. Since we're talking fantasy here, might as go all the way and add som Sci-fi to the equation.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

I think they were referring to Lewis, Bowe and the Klitschko's, who indeed don't have 40lb in weight on them, but rather more like 50-60lb.

They are a diferent case. They genuinely do represent something that had not been before.

That dose not however mean that fighters like Peter and Maskaev represent a new generation of super heavyweights.

[janitor]

[quote]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

Peter indeed has mediocre skill, though he has improved a lot in his recent outing vs Toney in which he is still lightyears ahead of Firpo.

You might think diferently if you had some better footage of Firpo. Against Willard for example he looks a lot better than the Dempsey fight would suggest.

That is flatout ridiculous. Watch these random pictures from his fight with Briggs:

[IMG]********newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/43002000/jpg/_43002343_ibragimov203.jpg[/IMG]



[IMG]***********.eastsideboxing.com/fotos/SIZE%20DIFFERENCE.jpg[/IMG]


[IMG]***********.eastsideboxing.com/fotos/THE%20BIG%20SULTAN%20VICTORY%201701.jpg[/IMG]

These pictures do not contradict anything I have said. He clearly caries excess fat around his midriff above his trunks. I could probably find some pictures from a diferent angle that look less flatering still.

If you think that is a spare tire then you are clearly biased or you also think Marciano carried a spare tire. Check it out:
[IMG]***********.brocktonma.com/bhs/rockyknockout.jpg[/IMG]

There is nothing in this picture to suggest excess fat. Compare the muscle definition on Marcianos arms legs and torso to that of Ibragimov.

Not many, bigger guys lacked the talent to consistenly beat their smaller counterparts back then.

You seem to be arguing that only the smaller fighters were talented back then despite the fact that they were taught by the same trainers as the biger fighters.

Did big fighters just not bother to learn?

You mean 220lb when he was in the olympics?

Since you ask yes he was out of shape even then.

[IMG]********img215.imageshack.us/img215/3275/samuelpeterbeforeklitscjb8.jpg[/IMG]



[IMG]********img233.imageshack.us/img233/5372/samuelpeterbeforeklitscvk6.jpg[/IMG]


If he's hiding a spare tire then he hides it really well.

Now look at a side view of him and you will se a much less flatering picture.

Refer to the pics that i posted of Sultan. Check again.

They seem to eminently suport my case.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't Galento have an, in the eyes of many, very deserved and anticipated title shot and not only that, but managed to floor the champion? And this was not a Neon Leon kind of champion.

Yes Galento deserved his title shot but he was ridiculed in the press for his training habits and lack of conditioning. It was not something people were used to seeing.

[Senya13]

Galento deserved a title shot? You gotta be kidding me.

[Duodenum]

Originally Posted by tobkhan

I completly disagree. Maskaev and Chagaev never had a fight where they were out of shape, they always in there to go the full 12 rounds on a good pace. They may not look like Ali or Tyson but that´s their physique. I have a similar one, i know plenty of guys who train much less than me but have a six-pack, i will never have one regardless what i do.

So steroids didn't work for you, huh?