Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

[lefthook31]

Originally Posted by janitor

It wasn't just clinching and headbutting.

Holyfield beat Tyson mainly because he could infight and Tyson couldn't.

That is the bottom line.

Thats part of it, but more proof it wasnt the same Tyson of the late 80's. That Tyson was an excellent infighter. Could you see the 91 version of Holyfield manhandling Tyson? No way.

[Arka]

Originally Posted by gooners!!

Twist it which ever way you want Holyfield was coming off two terrible performances, that is a fact! and he still beat Mike aged 34 after all those wars.

The excuses dont wash

Your argument you're giving just seems a bit simple-minded.


I wish someone could technically break down their styles and give the possible strategies of what they consider to be the most effective versions of both fighters.

[fists of fury]

Originally Posted by DDA365

Would anybody else agree that the decline in Tysons skills and his lack of ring sharpness and timing were a lot bigger factors in his performances against Holyfield than his mental weakness.

Two things for me spring to mind:

1) Rooney was gone.
2) His fights had been easy up until Holyfield. I'm talking post-prison. He didn't have to face any kind of gut check in beating the likes of Seldon or Bruno, and then he had to face a major one in facing Holyfield.

But having said that, Tyson was still very formidable. He looked hungry and in great shape. He still would have beaten the vast majority of heavyweights that night. Holy just wasn't one of them.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by Beeston Brawler

It was HIS fault (and his alone) that he was out for four years, and preferred to chew up a few clowns before facing a terrified (and unmotivated) Bruno, then Seldon.... rather than building up properly, before running from Lewis and cherrypicking a supposedly shot Holyfield.

I wouldn't have Tyson in the top 10, put it that way.

Not a great deal of thought has gone into my 11-20 at heavyweight, though I'd guess he would figure somewhere.

The fact in Tyson was past prime, own fault or not that wasnt the best Tyson in there, and if he didnt actually rape Washington it wasnt his fault, however I'd side with the victim and say he probably forced her, Im not a nuthugging woman hater like many on here

Go on give us your top 10 then because Dempsey, Liston, Marciano, Holmes, Louis fought worse competition and were less emphatic overall. Frazier and foreman were both only briefly at the top and had less depth to their resumes. And all have worse losses bar Marciano/Holmes and Rocky only fought at the top for a few years.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by gooners!!

I love it the way Tyson fans gloss over the fact that Holyfield was 34 at the time and has been in many many wars, he was also coming off some terrible performances against Moorer and Bowe, but lets not ruin a good story eh.



Tyson was in better shape than Holyfield to win that fight, he lost because Holyfield was a better fighter.

The fact is Tyson hadn't been past 3rounds in 5years, where as Holy had been doing that distance regular. Tyson had gone 4years with no boxing training, where as Holy had been doing the boxing training throughout that time. Tyson had lost his muscle and got fat in prison, holy improved his physique while Tyson was in prison

Holyfield was vastly bolstered by some serious steroid use in 1996, just look at the physical improvements from Bowe 3 to Tyson 1

[gooners!!]

The fact is Tyson hadn't been past 3rounds in 5years, where as Holy had been doing that distance regular. Tyson had gone 4years with no boxing training, where as Holy had been doing the boxing training throughout that time. Tyson had lost his muscle and got fat in prison, holy improved his physique while Tyson was in prison

Holyfield was vastly bolstered by some serious steroid use in 1996, just look at the physical improvements from Bowe 3 to Tyson 1

So going to prison takes more out of your body than going to war in majority of fights you are in, Holyfield was also 34 at the time.

Why dont you just concede commonsense, that Holyfield was no worse than Tyson physcially and i would argue Tyson was better off than Holyfield but defintely not less than Holyfield. You Tyson fans deffy logic because you dont want accept reallity.

[Arka]

Originally Posted by gooners!!

So going to prison takes more out of your body than going to war in majority of fights you are in, Holyfield was also 34 at the time.

In this era of steroids and Human growth hormone,I have genuinely no idea, gooners.

Seriously,I don't know.

[Primadonna Kool]

Originally Posted by JudgeDredd

Good post, I agree Holyfield was a great fighter.

Also...

Evander Holyfield had better movement than a prime Mike Tyson, and more agility.....and endurance.

Evander Holyfeild speed never get's talked about or enough credit..

Evander Holyfield's hand speed, was immense....immense.

In both Holyfield vs Tyson fights.....

Not once did Mike Tyson hurt Evander Holyfield, not once did Mike Tyson back up Evander Holyfeild.

Mike Tyson's power did not bother him.....

This scared Mike Tyson, i am a massive Mike Tyson fan. But ive only really seen doubt and a hint of fear in Mike Tyson's eyes against Evander Holyfield.......

In the rematch, Mike Tyson did not stare into Evander Holyfields eye's during the stare down...he kept on looking away.......

In their first fight, Mike Tyson was trying to give Evander Holyfield some respect after the bell during the mid rounds, and i can distinctly...remember....

Evander Holyfield just looked at him, and walked to his corner.

Evander Holyfield had Mike Tyson's number, he would always beat him.............ALWAYS..!

[DDA365]

Originally Posted by gooners!!

So going to prison takes more out of your body than going to war in majority of fights you are in, Holyfield was also 34 at the time.

Why dont you just concede commonsense, that Holyfield was no worse than Tyson physcially and i would argue Tyson was better off than Holyfield but defintely not less than Holyfield. You Tyson fans deffy logic because you dont want accept reallity.

Nobodies saying that, what are you talking about?

You seem to be trying to dismiss suggestions that Tyson wasnt at his best when he fought Holyfield, which is pretty obvious to anybody that has eyes.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by gooners!!

So going to prison takes more out of your body than going to war in majority of fights you are in, Holyfield was also 34 at the time.

Why dont you just concede commonsense, that Holyfield was no worse than Tyson physcially and i would argue Tyson was better off than Holyfield but defintely not less than Holyfield. You Tyson fans deffy logic because you dont want accept reallity.

Because the only reason Holyfield won was because he had better stamina down the stretch, meaning he had much better stamina, Tyson had much much better stamina in his prime, if Tyson had managed to maintain what he did in the first 5 rounds he would have won. Lets also not forget Holyfield had vastly improved his strength and condition through steroid use in this fight. If you cant see 4 years of zero training makes you a much worse fighter and past prime you really don't understand sport let alone boxing.

SIMPLE, need to learn anything else about boxing just ask

[gooners!!]

Nobodies saying that, what are you talking about?

You seem to be trying to dismiss suggestions that Tyson wasnt at his best when he fought Holyfield, which is pretty obvious to anybody that has eyes.

Because the only reason Holyfield won was because he had better stamina down the stretch, meaning he had much better stamina, Tyson had much much better stamina in his prime, if Tyson had managed to maintain what he did in the first 5 rounds he would have won.

SIMPLE, need to learn anything else about boxing just ask

You are misinterpreting me, im saying its irrelevant bringing up how Mike was past his best because so was Holyfield, infact like i said you could argue more past it than Tyson.


Holyfield has bigger cajones son not just better stamina, Holyfield has always had notoriously high stamina.

Why would i need to ask you if i want to learn Boxing ? i know where your knowledge extends to ..............biasedness, refusing to accept reallity and bringing everything back to Mike in the 80"s when he woulda whooped Ali and Frazier on the same night.

[DDA365]

Well physically maybe, but then I'm not actually too sure about that because despite being through all the wars and maybe being a bit slower Holyfield looked bulkier and stronger than he had preivously which for fighting Tyson is probably actually more useful, but youve got to look at boxing skills as well, holyfield proved he still had them...tyson proved his were almost gone

You know most fighters will decline when they age and physically they start to weaken a bit, but with Tyson his decline was more in a boxing sense. His defense was so much worse, his combination punching was gone etc.

[gooners!!]

Well physically maybe, but then I'm not actually too sure about that because despite being through all the wars and maybe being a bit slower Holyfield looked bulkier and stronger than he had preivously which for fighting Tyson is probably actually more useful, but youve got to look at boxing skills as well, holyfield proved he still had them...tyson proved his were almost gone

You know most fighters will decline when they age and physically they start to weaken a bit, but with Tyson his decline was more in a boxing sense. His defense was so much worse, his combination punching was gone etc.

Yeah ive heard this one before, Brother Mike got amnesia after Rooney left didn't he.

The excuses are never ending.

[DDA365]

Pardon? Its not an excuse, its his fault, what kind of excuse would that be? Its just stating a fact.

You cant tell me that you dont think his skills declined.

[lefthook31]

Originally Posted by gooners!!

So going to prison takes more out of your body than going to war in majority of fights you are in, Holyfield was also 34 at the time.

Why dont you just concede commonsense, that Holyfield was no worse than Tyson physcially and i would argue Tyson was better off than Holyfield but defintely not less than Holyfield. You Tyson fans deffy logic because you dont want accept reallity.

Yes inactivity is the death of any fighter. Boxing has to be second nature and the movements have to come naturally. Holy was active, and its not like he had to be too savvy against Tyson. I never thought Tyson ever looked like his old self. He made so many amatuer mistakes its almost like he was learning to box all over again, and his style had to be dialed in perfectly to work, because he was not boxing from the outside he was coming forward slipping and countering. The biggest thing that never returned was his timing, and thats a big part of the inactivity.