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Old 09-19-2009, 09:06 PM   #76
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

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Simply Tyson was no longer a fighter both mentally and physically equipped to be successful on the championship level.

Let me give you another example. Do you think the Tyson that fought Evander Holyfield would have been able to compete with Razor Ruddock like he did in 90? Tyson was declined in those fights, but still able to fight a fight much more grueling than the Holyfield fight.
That does not necessarily answer me question unless yo mean no

Well yes because i dont consider that to a grueling fight, Mike beat up Ruddock he did not have to suck it up because he was not getting hit back and asked questions of like he was from Douglas & Holyfield.

Its like i said before, Ruddock threw a few flurries at the end of a couple of rounds but the story of the fight was Mike using Ruddock for a punch bag.

Could you answer my question again though please.
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Old 09-19-2009, 09:11 PM   #77
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

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Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
When you look at the two fights, Holyfield didnt do anything spectacular. He didnt dominate Tyson nor did he befuddle him with boxing skills. He simply weathered the storm until Tyson was so fatigued he couldnt continue.
No he didn't, he stood and fought him on the inside and matched skills and strength with him there. He rocked him in the 2nd round of their first fight and clearly won the first two rounds of the rematch. He didn't just "wait" for Tyson to get tired.

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Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
It was nothing like the Douglas fight where Tyson was completely outboxed and outclassed, so to say he had Tysons number is kind of ridiculous, especially considering Tyson was a far better fighter in the late 80's early 90's and noone should deny that.
It's not "ridiculous" because Tyson was much closer his best at this time than Holy was. The whole boxing world agreed that this was Holy's long-awaited chance to prove that he was better than Tyson, and probably coming about 5 years too late. Why should that be rewritten just because he did what no one thought he could still do?

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Originally Posted by Beeston Brawler View Post

I think that generally a lot of excuses are made for Tyson..... whereas very few are made for others when they lose, especially at/around their prime.
Exactly.

If the loser of this rivalry didn't happened to be named "Mike Tyson" you wouldn't see people bending over backwards to make the kind of excuses they are here.

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
Tyson had been out of boxing for 4 years, had lost his stamina, the most underrated attribute in boxing, you dont think thats a good excuse?
Holy had lost far more of his stamina by this time than Tyson had, and he had always relied on his stamina much more to win fights than Tyson had.

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
It wasn't just clinching and headbutting.

Holyfield beat Tyson mainly because he could infight and Tyson couldn't.

That is the bottom line.
Exactly.

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
Couldn't in fight? He arguably had the best uppercut of all time
Having an uppercut alone doesn't make someone a good infighter. There's a lot more skill and even toughness(mental and physical) involved than just that.

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Originally Posted by gooners!! View Post

Tyson was in better shape than Holyfield to win that fight, he lost because Holyfield was a better fighter.
Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Arka View Post
Did the version of Moorer that first beat Holyfield always have Holyfield's number?
Doubtful, seeing as he "beat" him only in a close fight with some questionable scoring, and was whupped in a rematch with an older and even more shopworn Holy.

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Originally Posted by Arka View Post
Did a young Riddick Bowe in the first fight of their trilogy always have Holyfield's number?
Possibly.

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Originally Posted by Arka View Post
Was Holyfield shit in those fights or were Moorer and Bowe really that good?
He was shit against Moorer and the third Bowe fight, but Bowe was "that good" in their first two fights.

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Originally Posted by Arka View Post
Put it that way, it's imponderable.
Not really.

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Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
Could you see the 91 version of Holyfield manhandling Tyson? No way.
Why not? You're basing your assessments on your own speculations and pre-conceived notions rather than what was actually proven as these fighters' careers unfolded.
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Old 09-19-2009, 09:15 PM   #78
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

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Originally Posted by gooners!! View Post
That does not necessarily answer me question unless yo mean no

Well yes because i dont consider that to a grueling fight, Mike beat up Ruddock he did not have to suck it up because he was not getting hit back and asked questions of like he was from Douglas & Holyfield.

Its like i said before, Ruddock threw a few flurries at the end of a couple of rounds but the story of the fight was Mike using Ruddock for a punch bag.

Could you answer my question again though please.
Yes I believe Holyfield had more in the tank. He went 12 rounds with Lewis twice didnt he? Tyson couldnt fight past 6 rounds. For the record Ruddock landed some substantial shots on Tyson, and Tyson showed some serious resolve fighting through them. Tyson wasnt half as active in the Holyfield fight, with movement and punches thrown. I dont really understand how you cant see the differences.
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Old 09-19-2009, 09:20 PM   #79
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

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Originally Posted by My2Sense View Post
The whole boxing world agreed that this was Holy's long-awaited chance to prove that he was better than Tyson, and probably coming about 5 years too late. Why should that be rewritten just because he did what no one thought he could still do?
It shouldnt be rewritten, it should be remembered that this was peoples impressions going into the fight

but surely what you know after watching the fight is that they were wrong, it was a good time for evander to face tyson, edivently.
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Old 09-19-2009, 09:21 PM   #80
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

All these people now claiming Tyson had less left than Holy - Where on earth were they before the fight?? Where were they when Holy was being dismissed as "shot" and a set-up for Tyson, and Tyson entered the ring as at least a 6-1 favorite? How much money did they all make by betting on Holyfield?
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Old 09-19-2009, 09:23 PM   #81
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

[quote=My2Sense;4974451]
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Originally Posted by My2Sense View Post
No he didn't, he stood and fought him on the inside and matched skills and strength with him there. He rocked him in the 2nd round of their first fight and clearly won the first two rounds of the rematch. He didn't just "wait" for Tyson to get tired.



It's not "ridiculous" because Tyson was much closer his best at this time than Holy was. The whole boxing world agreed that this was Holy's long-awaited chance to prove that he was better than Tyson, and probably coming about 5 years too late. Why should that be rewritten just because he did what no one thought he could still do?


If the loser of this rivalry didn't happened to be named "Mike Tyson" you wouldn't see people bending over backwards to make the kind of excuses they are here.



Holy had lost far more of his stamina by this time than Tyson had, and he had always relied on his stamina much more to win fights than Tyson had.



Having an uppercut alone doesn't make someone a good infighter. There's a lot more skill and even toughness(mental and physical) involved than just that.
Agree with all these points.

To think Holyfield just fought like a lion waiting i the weeds to seize his opportunity to take Tyson when he got tired because he survived his onslaught is extremely underrating how well he performed to win the fight. Mike Tyson said himself he did not like to fight on the inside and i dont think he was ever a great in fighter, i think Tyson's power gave the impression he was a good infighter, he was however a good fighter from mid range.


Thats basically what i said earlier, Holyfield would not get the benefit of doubt if he had lost decisively.


Yeah you could see Holyfield's stamina was a problem in his fights with Moorer and Bowe.
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Old 09-19-2009, 09:26 PM   #82
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

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Originally Posted by My2Sense View Post
All these people now claiming Tyson had less left than Holy - Where on earth were they before the fight?? Where were they when Holy was being dismissed as "shot" and a set-up for Tyson, and Tyson entered the ring as at least a 6-1 favorite? How much money did they all make by betting on Holyfield?
I made a nice piece of change on that fight! I even made a little on the second fight. But then I would have bet on Holyfield years earlier, too. Hell, I would bet on Holyfield again now if Mike came back!
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Old 09-19-2009, 09:26 PM   #83
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

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Originally Posted by DDA365 View Post

but surely what you know after watching the fight is that they were wrong, it was a good time for evander to face tyson, edivently.
Why? How does whoever wins "change" what each man's status was and was already acknowledged to be coming into the fight? That's two separate issues.

Holy's win just proves that he could win in spite of the disadvantages he was under, and that he was that much better of a fighter than Tyson that he could do that.
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Old 09-19-2009, 09:26 PM   #84
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

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Originally Posted by My2Sense View Post
All these people now claiming Tyson had less left than Holy - Where on earth were they before the fight?? Where were they when Holy was being dismissed as "shot" and a set-up for Tyson, and Tyson entered the ring as at least a 6-1 favorite? How much money did they all make by betting on Holyfield?
Was Evander "shot" at that time?
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Old 09-19-2009, 09:29 PM   #85
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

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Originally Posted by My2Sense View Post
All these people now claiming Tyson had less left than Holy - Where on earth were they before the fight?? Where were they when Holy was being dismissed as "shot" and a set-up for Tyson, and Tyson entered the ring as at least a 6-1 favorite? How much money did they all make by betting on Holyfield?
I dont really get this point, whether people realised before the fight or not doesnt affect whether its true or not.
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Old 09-19-2009, 09:31 PM   #86
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

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Originally Posted by My2Sense View Post
Why? How does whoever wins "change" what each man's status was and was already acknowledged to be coming into the fight? That's two separate issues.

Holy's win just proves that he could win in spite of the disadvantages he was under, and that he was that much better of a fighter than Tyson that he could do that.
Are you saying we should judge fighters condition on pre match hype, betting and 'status' rather than something like I dont know....how they performed in the fight.

And yes I agree with you Holyfield was evidently much better at that time thats why he won.
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Old 09-19-2009, 09:31 PM   #87
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

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Yes I believe Holyfield had more in the tank. He went 12 rounds with Lewis twice didnt he? Tyson couldnt fight past 6 rounds. For the record Ruddock landed some substantial shots on Tyson, and Tyson showed some serious resolve fighting through them. Tyson wasnt half as active in the Holyfield fight, with movement and punches thrown. I dont really understand how you cant see the differences.

Well thats me done trying to argue commonsense.
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Old 09-19-2009, 09:32 PM   #88
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

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Was Evander "shot" at that time?
Shot, or at least close to it.
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Old 09-19-2009, 09:34 PM   #89
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

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Originally Posted by My2Sense View Post
Shot, or at least close to it.
So Moorer and Bower,but not Lewis should get any credit for defeated him twice.
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Old 09-19-2009, 09:34 PM   #90
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Default Re: Holyfield...Did he just have Tyson's number?

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Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
Yes I believe Holyfield had more in the tank. He went 12 rounds with Lewis twice didnt he? Tyson couldnt fight past 6 rounds.
Why would that prove Holy was "less shot" than Tyson? Why wouldn't it just reaffirm that he was a better fighter to begin with? That's if you even think it has to prove anything at all.
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