Emile Griffith vs. Roberto Duran at 147

laxpdx · 09-21-2009, 05:42 AM

If the Griffith that "KO'd" (tragically) Paret was up against Duran of Palomino and Leonard...

he grant · 09-21-2009, 06:58 AM

Duran by decision ...

McGrain · 09-21-2009, 06:58 AM

Griffith would win. Was there ever a stronger ww than Griffith?

WhataRock · 09-21-2009, 07:01 AM

Rodriguez? Seemed to handle Emile in this regard pretty well.

McGrain · 09-21-2009, 07:37 AM

Rod was a beast, but then you have Griffith matching Tiger in the right spots.

JudgeDredd · 09-21-2009, 09:28 AM

Griffith by decision

Sweet Pea · 09-21-2009, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McGrain

Rod was a beast, but then you have Griffith matching Tiger in the right spots.

You bring that up a lot. I think he more or less just matched up with Tiger very well. I don't think he proved his strength at WW the way you seem to think at all. He was more of a pure out-boxer with very good inside skills than a physically imposing fighter. Very strong, no doubt, but hardly in the discussion of fighters I'd consider among the strongest. Again, when did he prove that kind of strength outside of the Tiger bout, when he more or less stuck to his old stick and move strategy interspersed with moments of clinching and in-fighting? And when did he prove it at WW? I think for sure a guy like Carmen Basilio was stronger.

WhataRock · 09-21-2009, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

You bring that up a lot. I think he more or less just matched up with Tiger very well. I don't think he proved his strength at WW the way you seem to think at all. He was more of a pure out-boxer with very good inside skills than a physically imposing fighter. Very strong, no doubt, but hardly in the discussion of fighters I'd consider among the strongest. Again, when did he prove that kind of strength outside of the Tiger bout, when he more or less stuck to his old stick and move strategy interspersed with moments of clinching and in-fighting? And when did he prove it at WW? I think for sure a guy like Carmen Basilio was stronger.

Maybe the Paret fights?

Benny seemed like a pretty strong, no bullshit kind of fighter.

Though I have only watched their second fight two or three times...dont like watching the ones with the sad endings.

Flea Man · 09-21-2009, 10:08 AM

Basilio is a good shout. But then, Duran was very, very strong at this weight too, despite coming up. The Palomino fight is a good example. I'd have to say Basilio would shade it, but who would win a Welterweight fight between the two?

McGrain · 09-21-2009, 10:10 AM

Well, it depends on how important you think a single perfromance is.

Griffith wasn't a fighter who rellied upon strength. When he matched strength with Dick Tiger, he did just fine. Tiger is regarded as one of the strongest fighters in history and is a weight class heavier than Griffith. Just because Griffith doesn't USE his stength, why is that reason for ranking Bassilo as stronger because he does? Do you think of the Griffith-Tiger fights as anomolies? That they don't matter because Griffith was a little heavier? What does additinal proof of strenght matter, at all? Do you think Basillo would match Tiger for strength? Griffith muscled Parret, too.

It also interests me that Clancey knew before the fight that matching strength would not be an issue for Emile. He had total confidence in his man's strength.

Sweet Pea · 09-21-2009, 10:21 AM

I don't think he did match strength with Tiger. I think he was able to hold his own in certain inside exchanges and clinches before Tiger really had a chance to get his feet underneath him and really impose himself. It was an excellent, if very simple, gameplan that Emile often used. For the most part, he just stuck to his typical stick and move behind the jab strategy. Were he to have fought with Tiger for prolonged periods on the inside (A prime Tiger, mind you. Remember he never got within 5 pounds of making the MW limit again) I might agree. As it is, he didn't and I don't think he could.

When you factor in that he simply did not show the kind of strength that you seem to think he posessed in any other bout (in fact he seemed out-muscled by the likes of Luis Rodriguez), it just doesn't add up. I don't think he was any stronger than Duran as a matter of fact, and definitely not as varied or skilled.

McGrain · 09-21-2009, 10:28 AM

Griffith himself was quite happy that he matched Tiger for strength. He was surprised by it, pleasently surprised, the game plan was Arcel's and it seems that Griffith didn't really believe in it 100%, though he clearly believed in Arcel.

I'm also surprised that Tiger was able to enforce his strength on so many other fighters if it was just a case of "not letting him get his feet underneath him". You've got to wonder why every man and his monkey didn't "hold his own in certain inside exchanges". Tiger was accomplished at enforcing his strength upon other men.

Regardless, i'm quite happy that Griffith was a stronger man than Duran. Unless, of course, Duran was able to match him on the inside before Griffith was able to get his feet underneath him.

Sweet Pea · 09-21-2009, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McGrain

Griffith himself was quite happy that he matched Tiger for strength. He was surprised by it, pleasently surprised, the game plan was Arcel's and it seems that Griffith didn't really believe in it 100%, though he clearly believed in Arcel.

I'm also surprised that Tiger was able to enforce his strength on so many other fighters if it was just a case of "not letting him get his feet underneath him". You've got to wonder why every man and his monkey didn't "hold his own in certain inside exchanges". Tiger was accomplished at enforcing his strength upon other men.

Regardless, i'm quite happy that Griffith was a stronger man than Duran. Unless, of course, Duran was able to match him on the inside before Griffith was able to get his feet underneath him.

A very real possibility. Griffith must've been tripped up for about a 4 fight period against Rodriguez.

Tiger was always able to impose his strength against men who stood their ground with him, otherwise it took him a minute to get his bearings and really start to impose himself. He was a very patient fighter anywhere in the ring, including the inside. Were Griffith to have stood his ground for prolonged periods, as I stated above, it would've proved that he could match strength with a fading Dick Tiger. He didn't do that, so he didn't prove it. He executed a very well laid out gameplan in the first fight (and still arguably lost because he wasn't able to deal with Tiger's strength and fury as well as you seem to think) and beat a shell of the same fighter in the rematch, mostly by boxing him from afar.

Sorry, I just don't see where you're coming from.

McGrain · 09-21-2009, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

A very real possibility. Griffith must've been tripped up for about a 4 fight period against Rodriguez.

Quote:

Tiger was always able to impose his strength against men who stood their ground with him, otherwise it took him a minute to get his bearings and really start to impose himself.

I don't agree with this at all. Tiger was well balanced most of the time and very ready to deploy when he closed the distance. I don't see any evidence of his taking a minute to "get his bearings" and I don't think i've seen any top drawer pro fighter struggle this much with a change in distance.

Quote:

He was a very patient fighter anywhere in the ring, including the inside. Were Griffith to have stood his ground for prolonged periods, as I stated above, it would've proved that he could match strength with a fading Dick Tiger. He didn't do that, so he didn't prove it.

Alright, but your basically tossing out exchanges of strength because Griffith didn't stand and punch for extended periods with a bigger man. Doesn't seem logical to me - why not just use what is available on film to break down the fighter? For the record, Gil Clancy:

"I have a picture in my basement that the two of them took together in the gym, and you know, Dick was much heavier than Griffith but Griffith had such a big upper body...if you saw the two together you would think Griffith was the heavier."

Griffith: "I was stronger than him inside."

Griffith said this to Clancy, not in public for some press-conference bombast, to Clancy, in private. Clancy replied, "Emile, i've been telling you that for two months."

Quote:

still arguably lost because he wasn't able to deal with Tiger's strength and fury as well as you seem to think

He arguably won, as well, like on the judges score-cards for example. Presumably because he was able to deal with these things as well as I think.

Most of the clinches from around the 8th were initiated by Griffith. Griffith claims to have felt the stronger of the two in these clinches. That's debateable, but he does very well in them. Either you are right and Tiger couldn't get his feet underneath him for some reason, or I am right and Griffith is a very strong human being.

Sweet Pea · 09-21-2009, 10:59 AM

Goddamnit! Why? Why did you have to drag me into an increasingly lengthy debate at 11:00 in the morning, immediately after getting home from a drunken bash? I realize you're probably at work with fuck all to do, but I'm off today and somewhat hungover. I'm unshowered and unshaven, completely unfit for lengthy debates on the internet. Just little quips will suffice for now.

We'll finish this later.

09-21-2009, 05:42 AM	#1
laxpdx Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 2,386 vCash: 1000	Emile Griffith vs. Roberto Duran at 147 If the Griffith that "KO'd" (tragically) Paret was up against Duran of Palomino and Leonard...
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09-21-2009, 06:58 AM	#2
he grant Historian/Film Maker East Side Guru Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 6,478 vCash: 1000	Re: Emile Griffith vs. Roberto Duran at 147 Duran by decision ...
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09-21-2009, 06:58 AM	#3
McGrain Diamond Dog East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 63,259 vCash: 1000	Re: Emile Griffith vs. Roberto Duran at 147 Griffith would win. Was there ever a stronger ww than Griffith?
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09-21-2009, 07:01 AM	#4
WhataRock Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Sydney Posts: 13,403 vCash: 166	Re: Emile Griffith vs. Roberto Duran at 147 Rodriguez? Seemed to handle Emile in this regard pretty well.
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09-21-2009, 07:37 AM	#5
McGrain Diamond Dog East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 63,259 vCash: 1000	Re: Emile Griffith vs. Roberto Duran at 147 Rod was a beast, but then you have Griffith matching Tiger in the right spots.
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09-21-2009, 09:28 AM	#6
JudgeDredd Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 1,449 vCash: 187	Re: Emile Griffith vs. Roberto Duran at 147 Griffith by decision
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09-21-2009, 10:08 AM	#9
Flea Man มวยสากล East Side VIP Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: @ferociousflea Posts: 44,065 vCash: 75	Re: Emile Griffith vs. Roberto Duran at 147 Basilio is a good shout. But then, Duran was very, very strong at this weight too, despite coming up. The Palomino fight is a good example. I'd have to say Basilio would shade it, but who would win a Welterweight fight between the two?
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09-21-2009, 10:10 AM	#10
McGrain Diamond Dog East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 63,259 vCash: 1000	Re: Emile Griffith vs. Roberto Duran at 147 Well, it depends on how important you think a single perfromance is. Griffith wasn't a fighter who rellied upon strength. When he matched strength with Dick Tiger, he did just fine. Tiger is regarded as one of the strongest fighters in history and is a weight class heavier than Griffith. Just because Griffith doesn't USE his stength, why is that reason for ranking Bassilo as stronger because he does? Do you think of the Griffith-Tiger fights as anomolies? That they don't matter because Griffith was a little heavier? What does additinal proof of strenght matter, at all? Do you think Basillo would match Tiger for strength? Griffith muscled Parret, too. It also interests me that Clancey knew before the fight that matching strength would not be an issue for Emile. He had total confidence in his man's strength.
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09-21-2009, 10:21 AM	#11
Sweet Pea P4P King East Side VIP Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: I never sleep, cuz sleep is the cousin of death Posts: 16,432 vCash: 1000	Re: Emile Griffith vs. Roberto Duran at 147 I don't think he did match strength with Tiger. I think he was able to hold his own in certain inside exchanges and clinches before Tiger really had a chance to get his feet underneath him and really impose himself. It was an excellent, if very simple, gameplan that Emile often used. For the most part, he just stuck to his typical stick and move behind the jab strategy. Were he to have fought with Tiger for prolonged periods on the inside (A prime Tiger, mind you. Remember he never got within 5 pounds of making the MW limit again) I might agree. As it is, he didn't and I don't think he could. When you factor in that he simply did not show the kind of strength that you seem to think he posessed in any other bout (in fact he seemed out-muscled by the likes of Luis Rodriguez), it just doesn't add up. I don't think he was any stronger than Duran as a matter of fact, and definitely not as varied or skilled.
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09-21-2009, 10:28 AM	#12
McGrain Diamond Dog East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 63,259 vCash: 1000	Re: Emile Griffith vs. Roberto Duran at 147 Griffith himself was quite happy that he matched Tiger for strength. He was surprised by it, pleasently surprised, the game plan was Arcel's and it seems that Griffith didn't really believe in it 100%, though he clearly believed in Arcel. I'm also surprised that Tiger was able to enforce his strength on so many other fighters if it was just a case of "not letting him get his feet underneath him". You've got to wonder why every man and his monkey didn't "hold his own in certain inside exchanges". Tiger was accomplished at enforcing his strength upon other men. Regardless, i'm quite happy that Griffith was a stronger man than Duran. Unless, of course, Duran was able to match him on the inside before Griffith was able to get his feet underneath him.
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09-21-2009, 10:59 AM	#15
Sweet Pea P4P King East Side VIP Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: I never sleep, cuz sleep is the cousin of death Posts: 16,432 vCash: 1000	Re: Emile Griffith vs. Roberto Duran at 147 Goddamnit! Why? Why did you have to drag me into an increasingly lengthy debate at 11:00 in the morning, immediately after getting home from a drunken bash? I realize you're probably at work with fuck all to do, but I'm off today and somewhat hungover. I'm unshowered and unshaven, completely unfit for lengthy debates on the internet. Just little quips will suffice for now. We'll finish this later.
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