Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter?

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by Muchmoore

Rocky was disqualified for kicking a fighter in the nuts in the am's when he was losing.

And before someone says it's the amateurs, boxing was different in the early 1900's from now. You didn't have the internet with everyone knowing about "quit jobs" and you fought much more often in much harder circumstances.

Yeah, it was not only the amateurs but his 1st boxing match ever. One of which he was completely unfocused and out of shape in. He learned his lesson though. I'm going to remind you of pulling this up when you defend something ten times more ludicrous than this statement.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by Muchmoore

Johnson winning the HW title in that era takes more than a little bit of toughness, in my view at least

Not in the Ring. Johnson beat an ill Burns, who was ill and well below his normal weight of 168 pounds to win the crown. Burns wanted to postpone the fight.

As Champion there was no mandatory those days. Johnson competition as champion was perhaps the worst of any long tenured champion.

So in my eyes, Johnson had an easy both to win the title, and because he picked the opponents, had an easier time keeping the title.

Rocky as Champion did what a champion is supposed to do. That is fight ranked contenders year after year.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by Grebfan9

Hi Mendoza,

As usual you are a wealth of boxing knowledge. I am a Joe Jeanette
fan. Could you let me know where I could get a copy of the Johnson-
Jeanette DQ fight writeup. I didn't know that Jeanette had hurt Johnson
in the 1st round. Thats very interesting.

Years later, Johnson steered clear of Jeanette and refused to give Jeanette a title fight. Of the three top heavyweight contenders back then - Jeanette, McVey and Langford, I feel that Jeanette had the right STYLE OF FIGHTING to potentially whip Johnson. Not saying that Jeanette was a better fighter than McVey or Langford - but styles make fights.
Grebfan9

Grebfan9,

I don't have the report. I did read it though as it was posted here a while back. Jeanette had a big first round over Johnson and hurt him. Johnson, who was the colored champion at the time went low in round two un-purpose and lost via DQ, but somehow kept his title.

Jeanette's famous quote on Johnson was this. After Jack won the title ( Burns fight ) he forgot about his old friends and drew the color line against this own people.

[he grant]

Head to head Johnson wins easy decision.

[Holmes' Jab]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Johnson by a shade.

Same.

[guilalah]

I'm currently reading Clay Moyle's 'Sam Langford: Boxing's Greatest Uncrowned Champion'. One thing that seems notable in Sam's set to with Johnson was the disparity of strength between the two at that time. There were occaisions when Sam hurt Johnson, but he couldn't follow through because Johnson would tie him up; where as, when Johnson hurt Langford, Sam couldn't tie Johnson up and was compelled to fight through the bad moments.

I tend to rate Marciano a little over Johnson, but I can't claim to have any convincing arguments that I'm right.

[Dempsey1238]

Johnson head to head, might beat Marciano, but no way is he going to have a easy time with it.

This is not middleweights Burns and Ketchel in the ring. And Ketchel had Johnson down.

[Minotauro]

Johnson

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by guilalah

I'm currently reading Clay Moyle's 'Sam Langford: Boxing's Greatest Uncrowned Champion'. One thing that seems notable in Sam's set to with Johnson was the disparity of strength between the two at that time. There were occaisions when Sam hurt Johnson, but he couldn't follow through because Johnson would tie him up; where as, when Johnson hurt Langford, Sam couldn't tie Johnson up and was compelled to fight through the bad moments.

I tend to rate Marciano a little over Johnson, but I can't claim to have any convincing arguments that I'm right.

A. D. Philips Nat Fleischers father in law saw the Johnson ,Langford fight and stated that JOHNSON FLOORED LANGFORD A COUPLE OF TIMES ,BROKE HIS NOSE AND CUT HIS EYE,AND WAS NEVER IN ANY DANGER,of course Langford was only 156 lbs to Johnsons 185lbs, no doubt in later years the fight would have been much more competitive.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Not in the Ring. Johnson beat an ill Burns, who was ill and well below his normal weight of 168 pounds to win the crown. Burns wanted to postpone the fight.

As Champion there was no mandatory those days. Johnson competition as champion was perhaps the worst of any long tenured champion.

So in my eyes, Johnson had an easy both to win the title, and because he picked the opponents, had an easier time keeping the title.

Rocky as Champion did what a champion is supposed to do. That is fight ranked contenders year after year.

I am sure you mean well below his normal weight of around 180-183 lbs.
Burns had recently recovered from influenza ,according to three papers I read, NOT YELLOW FEVER OR JAUNDICE AS YOU STATED IN EARLIER POSTS.
Burns and the promoter of the fight Hugh D Mcintosh were the best of friends so if Burns was not fit to fight I beleive Mcintosh would have postponed the fight.

[mcvey]

Johnson steered clear of Jeanette?
While there is no doubt he did not defend his world title against him he fought him 5 more times after being dsqd against him,and lost NONE OF THEM, the best Jeannete could manage was a draw in one fight.

[rm36]

I admire Rocky's consistency. But I think multiple wins over Joe Jeannette, Sam Langford, and Tommy Burns should place Johnson above Rocky.

[Dempsey1238]

The others ok, I buy that, but Johnson and Burns only fought one time.


I put more stock in Marciano crushing Archie Moore over a win over Burns imo.

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

I will make one point: Rocky cleaned out his era and ducked nobody. The same cannot be said of Johnson.

For me this is the bottomline.

I can forgive Johnson missing a challenger or so, but he missed 4 well deserving contenders in Langford, Mcvey, Jeannette and Gunboat Smith. Sorry, beating them when they are teenagers/super welterweights doesn't amount to much. Lewis beating Bowe in the amateurs doesn't mean he beat a prime Bowe, either.

[Muchmoore]

Originally Posted by PetethePrince

Yeah, it was not only the amateurs but his 1st boxing match ever. One of which he was completely unfocused and out of shape in. He learned his lesson though. I'm going to remind you of pulling this up when you defend something ten times more ludicrous than this statement.

I love Rocky, my point was to illustrate how you can display the facts differently than they should and how Johnson fought in a much, much tougher environment and under very different circumstances which should be taken into account.

Just like how Rocky's display in that fight shouldn't be held against him as he was doing his training by smoking and eating