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Old 09-24-2009, 05:56 PM   #76
mcvey
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter?

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O'Brien is only credited with winning two rounds of the contest. Two rounds went to Johnson and the other two were even.

You just sank your argument!
Johnson was at a party till the early hours the night before he went the 6 rds no dec with O Brien, he entered the ring hung over.
Knowing OBrien had zero power to stop him and therefore his title was safe, [as it was a no dec affair he could only lose by stoppage].Johnson took the opportunity to do virtually nothing ,he was booed for loafing and O Brien was booed for running , a lamentable affair that reflected no credit to either man especially Johnson, whose disdain for the opinion of the paying public was all too apparent.As a guide to how O Brien would do in a real decision fight against Johnson, it was absolutely useless.
Burns beat O Brien ,and Johnson toyed with Burns, make up your own mind who would come out on top in a fight in earnest between Johnson and O Brien.
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Old 09-24-2009, 06:34 PM   #77
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter?

Marciano by a shade.
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Old 09-25-2009, 01:08 AM   #78
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter?

And the apology machine is revved to full for Johnson... "Oh he was green for Choynski", "Oh he was partying the night before O'Brien"...

Just as I stated. Do you people really think I haven't heard this shit before? I have travelled a hundred miles to buy actual clippings from original papers of his fights. I have researched this shit for over two decades. Come up with something original besides more excuses to deify Johnson.
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Old 09-25-2009, 03:09 AM   #79
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter?

Marciano
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Old 09-25-2009, 04:08 AM   #80
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter?

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And the apology machine is revved to full for Johnson... "Oh he was green for Choynski", "Oh he was partying the night before O'Brien"...

Just as I stated. Do you people really think I haven't heard this shit before? I have travelled a hundred miles to buy actual clippings from original papers of his fights. I have researched this shit for over two decades. Come up with something original besides more excuses to deify Johnson.
If you look through some of my earlier posts you will see that I described Johnson as a vain, conceited ,strutting shit ,and a known liar.Deifying ?I dont think so.
A question .if my post is inaccurate ,assume Johnson and O Brien are both in good shape in a fight over 15 -20 rds, fought to a decision. Johnson is favourite and OBrien is an 8 to 1 outsider, who would you bet on?
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Old 09-25-2009, 06:25 AM   #81
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter?

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You won't get any change from Mendoza with that remark !
Does that previous post have a direct source, or is it media hype?

The source I had from Johnson said Jeffries was the greatest. Oh by the way Johnson said in an interview that Hart whipped him too. I also have that source and have posted it here
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Old 09-25-2009, 06:29 AM   #82
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter?

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And the apology machine is revved to full for Johnson... "Oh he was green for Choynski", "Oh he was partying the night before O'Brien"...

Just as I stated. Do you people really think I haven't heard this shit before? I have travelled a hundred miles to buy actual clippings from original papers of his fights. I have researched this shit for over two decades. Come up with something original besides more excuses to deify Johnson.
Yes the apology machine contines.... I have seen some people change perspective, but others remain steadfast even though the films, and news papers disagree with them.

As I said before Johnson had a least 20 fights prior to facing Choynski and was a veteran of battle Royals. Also, it was Choynski who rode the rails. Johnson was fighting in his home town.
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Old 09-25-2009, 07:35 AM   #83
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter?

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Yes the apology machine contines.... I have seen some people change perspective, but others remain steadfast even though the films, and news papers disagree with them.

As I said before Johnson had a least 20 fights prior to facing Choynski and was a veteran of battle Royals. Also, it was Choynski who rode the rails. Johnson was fighting in his home town.
Any comment on Tommy Burns being 168lbs for his ko defence win over Jem Roche ,same as he weighed for his defence against Johnson ,or do you assume he had jaundice/yellow fever then too.
Any comment on Tracy Callis statement that Burns was suffering the after effects of influenza NOT Jaundice?
Any comment on my thread about pressure being applied to the biceps, to control a man inside,video provided?
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Old 09-26-2009, 06:35 AM   #84
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Any comment on Tommy Burns being 168lbs for his ko defence win over Jem Roche ,same as he weighed for his defence against Johnson ,or do you assume he had jaundice/yellow fever then too.
Any comment on Tracy Callis statement that Burns was suffering the after effects of influenza NOT Jaundice?
Any comment on my thread about pressure being applied to the biceps, to control a man inside,video provided?
Kevin Smith is the top historian on early black prize fighters. He says Burns had a Jaundice. My research says the same thing. In this case Callis is mistaken.

As I said before Burns was at a low weight and not at 100%.

I commented on the biceps point a while back when you claimed it was a great means of defense. I suppose it can work when you have you are heavyweight fighting a 5'7" super middle weight. It is not a good form of deffense in modern boxing.
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Old 09-26-2009, 09:31 AM   #85
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter?

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Kevin Smith is the top historian on early black prize fighters. He says Burns had a Jaundice. My research says the same thing. In this case Callis is mistaken.

As I said before Burns was at a low weight and not at 100%.

I commented on the biceps point a while back when you claimed it was a great means of defense. I suppose it can work when you have you are heavyweight fighting a 5'7" super middle weight. It is not a good form of deffense in modern boxing.
Kevin Smith is just one of many historians on boxing. HE IS NOT THE DEFINITIVE EXPERT BY ANY MEANS.BURNS DID NOT HAVE JAUNDICE,OR ,AS YOU CALLED IT IN YOUR ORIGINAL POST, YELLOW FEVER.He was recovering from influenza

How do you account for Burns weighing the same 168 lbs against Roche for a title defence?
Your comment , " I suppose it can work " ,is as near as you have ever come on this forum to admitting you were wrong.

Maybe , in another decade we might see one or two admissions of fallibilty from you ,but I am not holding my breath .

Holding the biceps is effective against MORE POWERFUL fighters ,as the video that was just posted on my behalf by another kind poster proves.
Ron Lipman used it against Tiger PRECISELY because Tiger was more powerful ,and he states unequivocably he learnt it from Giardello, who was Not as powerful as Tiger.

Johnson used it against Jeffries who was emphatically NOT a super middle weight.
The video destroys your argument entirely as Tiger and Giardello are MODERN boxers.
If you admitted you were wrong, I would have some respect for you ,but you won't ,and I don't.
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Old 09-26-2009, 10:40 AM   #86
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter?

Not to step into this beautiful fray, but giving Johnson much credit for beating that version of Jeffries is a big step outside of the realities of sport.
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Old 09-26-2009, 11:19 AM   #87
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter?

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Not to step into this beautiful fray, but giving Johnson much credit for beating that version of Jeffries is a big step outside of the realities of sport.
Seamus,

McVey insists Johnson must get credit for squeezing biceps! Oh, what defense.
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Old 09-26-2009, 12:04 PM   #88
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter?

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Not to step into this beautiful fray, but giving Johnson much credit for beating that version of Jeffries is a big step outside of the realities of sport.
Ive never given him much credit for beating a man much diminished ,really not much more than a facsimile of his former self.I have allways thought a prime Johnson and Jeffries would be an entirely different fight ,it would be totally unrealistic to assume otherwise imo.I still think Johnson beats Jeffries but by decision ,and it would be a close and competitive fight .
I give Johnson as much credit for this fight as I give Jeffries for koing the shell of Peter Jackson, ie, very little.
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Old 09-26-2009, 12:11 PM   #89
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter?

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Seamus,

McVey insists Johnson must get credit for squeezing biceps! Oh, what defense.
I don't give Johnson any credit foR squeezing biceps ,I have NEVER SAID I DO. What I said was it was a common way of controlling a fighter inside

you disputed this and tried in your asinine way to belittle my assertion,now that assertion has been endorsed by video evidence,not to mention photographic evidence of Johnson doing precisely that to Jeffries you try to weasel out of it.
You are not a whole man are you? You haven't the guts to say" I am wrong"
The Forum's Johnson hater, a sad specimen of a HUMAN BEING
I WOULD NOT PISS ON YOU

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Old 09-26-2009, 12:12 PM   #90
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter?

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Ive never given him much credit for beating a man much diminished ,really not much more than a facsimile of his former self.I have allways thought a prime Johnson and Jeffries would be an entirely different fight ,it would be totally unrealistic to assume otherwise imo.I still think Johnson beats Jeffries but by decision ,and it would be a close and competitive fight .
I give Johnson as much credit for this fight as I give Jeffries for koing the shell of Peter Jackson, ie, very little.
I agree that Jeffries had shed close to 100 lbs to fight Johnson and that has to effect his Cardio/Endurance. Still see Johnson winning a 15rd decision as you mentioned. You have to give Johnson credit for being emotionally strong enough to thwart the hatred leveled against him at the time. This social pressure has to wear you down over time and leaves you unfocused. I see Marciano totally focused on boxing so it is hard to compare the times of these two fighters.
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