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Old 09-15-2007, 09:58 PM   #1
Maxmomer
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Default Dempsey VS Today's active heavyweights

How do you think Dempsey would perform against the best of today's heavyweight division? Seeing as I'm no expert on the heavyweights of today, as they all seem fat, slow and boring to me, I can't really say with any acuraccy.
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:52 PM   #2
Grebfan9
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Default Re: Dempsey VS Today's active heavyweights

Dempsey was a MUCH better fighter than many people realize.

Dempsey was NOT a one-dimensional crude slugger. Rather,
he displayed good footwork, excellent bobbing/weaving, and
put his punches together extremely well.

Dempsey also had great handspeed combined with KO power.

I think that Dempsey would have prevailed against many of the
current heavyweights.
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:59 PM   #3
Maxmomer
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Default Re: Dempsey VS Today's active heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grebfan9
Dempsey was a MUCH better fighter than many people realize.

Dempsey was NOT a one-dimensional crude slugger. Rather,
he displayed good footwork, excellent bobbing/weaving, and
put his punches together extremely well.

Dempsey also had great handspeed combined with KO power.

I think that Dempsey would have prevailed against many of the
current heavyweights.
You're preaching to the choir their, buddy. Personally I rate Dempsey as a top 3 heavyweight of all time, second only to Ali and tied with Louis. I spent a day and a half arguing why I thought Dempsey would beat Marciano Head to Head on the general board. I want to say that Dempsey would pound all the current heavyweights to shit.
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Old 09-15-2007, 11:04 PM   #4
robert ungurean
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Default Re: Dempsey VS Today's active heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxmomer
You're preaching to the choir their, buddy. Personally I rate Dempsey as a top 3 heavyweight of all time, second only to Ali and tied with Louis. I spent a day and a half arguing why I thought Dempsey would beat Marciano Head to Head on the general board. I want to say that Dempsey would pound all the current heavyweights to shit.
I agree although I rate him second, Louis third.
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Old 09-15-2007, 11:09 PM   #5
Maxmomer
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Default Re: Dempsey VS Today's active heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert ungurean
I agree although I rate him second, Louis third.
I might, too. Honestly, it depends on which day you ask me. After reading part of Dempsey's book "Championship Fighting: Explosive Punching and Aggressive Defense" he's pulling ahead a bit.
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Old 09-16-2007, 06:19 AM   #6
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Dempsey VS Today's active heavyweights

Here was my post when he made a thread about it in the general forum:


Let's research that claim.

The current top10 from Boxrec:
(i don't agree with all of their choices, but let's go with them for the moment)

1. Wladimir Klitschko
Not fat.

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2. Samuel Peter
He is somewhat overweight. In december 2005, in his fight against Klitschko he was in good shape at 244lb when you could see his abs. Right now he's at 248lb which is 4 pounds to much, could maybe lose a bit more.

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3. Ruslan Chagaev
Like Peter he's build like a tank. Looked good at 228lb against Valuev. Not fat.


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4. Oleg Maskaev
Is in good shape considering the fact that at the age of 37 you naturally gain some weight. You can see this in any boxer's career.

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Better picture that is not linkable: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]



5. Nicolai Valuev
He has some fat but that seems to more because of his giant syndrom than lack of training. He is well conditioned and throws 45+ punches a round over 12 despite being 320 lb.

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6. Sultan Ibragimov
Came in overweight in his fight against Austin and looked mediocre, but has learned from it and came in at great shape against Briggs and his earlier fights, around 221lb.


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7. Tony Thompson
Is a big guy at 6'5 245lb. Not fat. I don't know why he's in the top10, but anyway.


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8. Vladimir Virchis
Another huge guy, not overweight. Couldn't find a bigger pic.

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9. Matt Skelton
Again i don't know why he's in the top10.
He is a bit too heavy, but do realise that he's 39 at which age you'll nature put on some pounds.

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10. John Ruiz
Not fat.


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To conclude, from the top10, only Peter and Skelton (who doesn't belong in the top10 anyway) are a bit overweight.
That is 2 out of 10 and it's not like they're grossly overweight. Heavyweights have always been the big guys who sometimes carry around some flap.


Now let's do a comparison with an other random era:

1995, ring top10:

Heavyweights

Title Vacant

1. Riddick Bowe (FAT)
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Mike Tyson
4. Michael Moorer
5. Evander Holyfield
6. Bruce Seldon
7. Frank Bruno
8. George Foreman (FAT)
9. Alexander Zolkin
10. Henry Akinwande

Of that list, Foreman and Bowe are overweight. That's 2 out of 10, just like today. What's more, they are more overweight that Peter and Skelton are.

Now let's look at 1985, ring rankings:

Michael Spinks, Champion

1. Pinklon Thomas
2. Larry Holmes
3. Tim Witherspoon
4. Tony Tubbs (FAT)
5. Greg Page (FAT)
6. Gerrie Coetzee (FAT)
7. Trevor Berbick
8. Carl Williams
9. Mike Weaver
10. Michael Dokes (FAT)

Of this list, 4 are overweight: Tubbs, Dokes, Page and Coetzee. And all of them to a larger extent than Peter and Skelton are.


As you can see, it's nothing new; in fact it has been worse in the past.
My guess is that the reason for the recent criticism is because there have been a few extremes recently (Toney & Johnson) and mostly, because people don't like the current heavyweights.

Last edited by cross_trainer; 06-19-2006 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 09-16-2007, 06:23 AM   #7
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Default Re: Dempsey VS Today's active heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxmomer
Seeing as I'm no expert on the heavyweights of today, as they all seem fat, slow and boring to me, I can't really say with any acuraccy.
Saying that "all" current heavyweights are fat seems to be the last straw to reach before accepting that they aren't 185 pound matchsticks like Dempsey used to face. And of course i'm not talking about the 37 year old, unathletic skill-less (and fat himself) out of shape Willard or the even lesser skilled Firpo, the only big guy he faced and whom he should've lost to be DQ.
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Old 09-16-2007, 07:12 AM   #8
Mendoza
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Default Re: Dempsey VS Today's active heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grebfan9
Dempsey was a MUCH better fighter than many people realize.

Dempsey was NOT a one-dimensional crude slugger. Rather,
he displayed good footwork, excellent bobbing/weaving, and
put his punches together extremely well.

Dempsey also had great handspeed combined with KO power.

I think that Dempsey would have prevailed against many of the
current heavyweights.
Very true. Dempsey wasn’t just a slugger. He was quick on his feet, had some good defensive maneuvers, excellent hand speed, and could throw combinations and packed dynamite in both mitts. Dempsey would need to refine his technique a tad, but nothing outside the realms of his athletic limitations.

I think Dempsey would be one of the champs for sure today, but I can’t see him being undefeated.
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Old 09-16-2007, 07:43 AM   #9
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Default Re: Dempsey VS Today's active heavyweights

He would murder the bums,no to be honest he would have a good chance id say of beating all the main men about,imagine the panic for example he would cause wlad if he got in close to him and began to batter him in close,not sure if wlad would be able to keep such a beast of a fighter of him.
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Old 09-16-2007, 11:11 AM   #10
Grebfan9
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Default Re: Dempsey VS Today's active heavyweights

I respectfully disagree. Dempsey did so well against BIG heavyweights
because of his combination of speed/power.

Remember that Tommy Gibbons lasted the distance with Jack.
Fat Willie Meehan, in reality a overweight middleweight, gave
Dempsey fits when they fought. Tunney was a "small" heavyweight
who moved up from the Lightheavyweight division. Harry Greb
got the better of Dempsey in sparring sessions. Gunboat
Smith, really a lighheavy, gave Jack a rough time too.

Dempsey beat Fred Fulton, Carl Morris, Jess Willard, Luis Firpo,
with vicious abandon. His spped against the big guys was the
difference. BTW, Dempsey's right hand to the body - left
hook to the head combo was very effective and brutal!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Flabby Gut
If Dempsey had to keep fighting men that are 50-70lbs. heavier than himself in fight after fight he would become damaged goods. Jerry Quarry won a lot of fights against bigger guys and his brain became severely damaged as a result. Even when Dempsey beats one of these guys he is still getting hit back. Beating the likes of big men like Fred Fulton, Willard, Firpo, etc. is a far cry from being able to beat a skilled big man of today. Dempsey would have a better chance of beating someone like Holyfield then beating the jumbo sized modern heavyweights like Bowe, Lewis, the Klitschkos, Peter. Just my humble opinion.
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Old 09-16-2007, 01:56 PM   #11
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Default Re: Dempsey VS Today's active heavyweights

Of all the HW champs from the 1st half of the last century(1900-1950) Jack Dempsey would probably bethe one best suited to cope with todays big modern HWs. His bob and weave in and out style combined with his chin and power would help him against todays much bigger men. That does NOT mean that he would dominate however. An earlier post used Jerry Quarry as an example of a good small to medium sized HW(by 1970's standards) against the bigger men of his day. While Jerry had his fair share of victories during that era I believe his size,or lack of it, hurt him at times and I believe the same would be true for Dempsey. Against a stiff or near stiff Dempsey would have a picnic. Against a big modern HW with skills he would'nt. Let's face it, these fighters today are BIG. Men like Klitschko,Peter,Lewis etc are much bigger and more skilled that anything the HW's of 50-100 yrs ago faced. The big men of yesterday were'nt as lethal as todays monsters. Carnera/Willard et al would be trounced by the likes of Vlad/Lennox/Peter etc. Athletes in general today are much bigger/faster and stronger than thier counterparts of yesterday. If Dempsey were fighting today, he would be fighting men who regularly outweigh him by 40-50lbs. Even for a fighter like Jack that would take a toll. These men today(the good ones anyway) employ a more modern style of boxing. Use of the jab, combinations etc..This was nearly nonexistent in the big men of yesterday(even among a lot of the smaller ones too) and alot of the modern big men move fast enough, at least for thier size. So while I agree That Jack would do well in todays era,I don't think he would be the force that he was in his own time. More quality big men. And in athletics size does matter.
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Old 09-16-2007, 02:30 PM   #12
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Default Re: Dempsey VS Today's active heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Saying that "all" current heavyweights are fat seems to be the last straw to reach before accepting that they aren't 185 pound matchsticks like Dempsey used to face.
Mate your previous post beutifully illustrates that most of the top 10 today are fat unconditioned slobs. Chagev, Maskaev, Peter and Ibragimov are frankly a disgrace. I walk the street in better shape than these guys enter the ring and I am not a profesional boxer. Wlad is the only fighter in the top 10 that I can respect as a student of boxing history.
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Old 09-16-2007, 02:39 PM   #13
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Default Re: Dempsey VS Today's active heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Mate your previous post beutifully illustrates that most of the top 10 today are fat unconditioned slobs. Chagev, Maskaev, Peter and Ibragimov are frankly a disgrace. I walk the street in better shape than these guys enter the ring and I am not a profesional boxer. Wlad is the only fighter in the top 10 that I can respect as a student of boxing history.
Chagaev and Maskaev enter the ring in very good shape...especially Maskaev. He is always in shape and always comes to fight. And all of those you listed still have the stamina to fight 12 rounds. You have to respect all of them - none are disgraces.
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Old 09-16-2007, 03:04 PM   #14
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Default Re: Dempsey VS Today's active heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by JIm Broughton
Of all the HW champs from the 1st half of the last century(1900-1950) Jack Dempsey would probably bethe one best suited to cope with todays big modern HWs. His bob and weave in and out style combined with his chin and power would help him against todays much bigger men. That does NOT mean that he would dominate however. An earlier post used Jerry Quarry as an example of a good small to medium sized HW(by 1970's standards) against the bigger men of his day. While Jerry had his fair share of victories during that era I believe his size,or lack of it, hurt him at times and I believe the same would be true for Dempsey. Against a stiff or near stiff Dempsey would have a picnic. Against a big modern HW with skills he would'nt. Let's face it, these fighters today are BIG. Men like Klitschko,Peter,Lewis etc are much bigger and more skilled that anything the HW's of 50-100 yrs ago faced. The big men of yesterday were'nt as lethal as todays monsters. Carnera/Willard et al would be trounced by the likes of Vlad/Lennox/Peter etc. Athletes in general today are much bigger/faster and stronger than thier counterparts of yesterday. If Dempsey were fighting today, he would be fighting men who regularly outweigh him by 40-50lbs. Even for a fighter like Jack that would take a toll. These men today(the good ones anyway) employ a more modern style of boxing. Use of the jab, combinations etc..This was nearly nonexistent in the big men of yesterday(even among a lot of the smaller ones too) and alot of the modern big men move fast enough, at least for thier size. So while I agree That Jack would do well in todays era,I don't think he would be the force that he was in his own time. More quality big men. And in athletics size does matter.
You really think Peter is THAT skilled? And Wlad may have skills but he doesn't have a great chin, which is why I think Dempsey'd be able to beat him. I also don't think writing off all of Dempsey's larger opponents as unskilled is entirly fair as we don't really have the film to judge for ourselves.
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Old 09-16-2007, 03:17 PM   #15
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Default Re: Dempsey VS Today's active heavyweights

People have Dempsey tied with and even above Louis in their rankings.

Joe Louis would slaughter Jack Dempsey.
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