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Old 09-22-2009, 04:48 PM   #31
lefthook31
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Default Re: Does Mayweather Deserve More Credit? (READ)

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Originally Posted by GPater11093 View Post
i gave Floyd huge credit for it i expected Marquez to give him some trouble but no he shut him out and dominated him spectacularry

im giving him credit for the win
I agree and I think Floyd could take more risks if he wanted to, but I dont think he wants to be in a tough grueling fight. I believe thats the reason he avoided Margarito, not because he couldnt win, but because what he would have to go through to get the win. Thats what seems to tarnish his legacy and something he has to live with if he doesnt take the fights the public wants to see him in.
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Old 09-22-2009, 04:53 PM   #32
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Corrales as forced to come DOWN in weight after expressing previous discomfort at making 130. Was also due to be sentenced just a few weeks later for domestic violence so was hardly in the best place. I personally think Floyd beats him under any circumstances, but to me honesst that list you've put up there is hardly making me change my mind. Look at the resumes of some of the top fighters.

Michael Nunn 36-0 regarded as top 5 P4p
Mike McCallum 41-1-1 top five P4P.
Iran Barkley 30-7 former Hearns conquer for IBF 168lb title
Vaily Jirov 31-0 At Cruiser, undefeated.
Holyfield-ATG two-weight champ, at HEAVY.

See, this looks great but it's not telling the whole story. It's leving out the fact that the McCallum fights were close and are still debated about now, it's leaving out the trouncing to Jones, the bad stay at Light-Heavy, his lack of dedication and bad attitude. How Holyfield was waaaaay past prime.

Just like you're leaving out Floyd fighting Gatti and Mitchell, fighting Hatton who had already seen as poor at Welter, fighting Baldomir just because he beat Judah when Margarito was there.

Works both ways.

P.S I'd believe he had the better shoulder roll if he implemented it against people that could actually hit him back. Like Emmanuel Augustus
As a Floyd fan I'd concede McCallum/Nunn are better than anyone he's faced. I'd also concede Toney has the better shoulder roll. That doesn't make Toney the better boxer or better overall defensive boxer. Mayweather is more dominant, undefeated and more complete

The Corrales excuses are just that, he was the red hot favourate, P4P top5, destroying everyone in his path before and after. From what I hear he didnt make weight, weighing 132 and the fight went ahead anyway
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Old 09-22-2009, 04:55 PM   #33
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Default Re: Does Mayweather Deserve More Credit? (READ)

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As a Floyd fan I'd concede McCallum/Nunn are better than anyone he's faced. I'd also concede Toney has the better shoulder roll. That doesn't make Toney the better boxer or better overall defensive boxer. Mayweather is more dominant, undefeated and more complete

The Corrales excuses are just that, he was the red hot favourate, P4P top5, destroying everyone in his path before and after. From what I hear he didnt make weight, weighing 132 and the fight went ahead anyway
So was Joe Calzaghe. Was his resume much cop? Nope.

Edit: I clearly rate Mayweather higher than Calzaghe but I think Kessler is a tougher opponent than Floyd has ever fought. Undefeated, optimum weight, good skills and power. Floyd has never fought anyone with all those attributes.

Just saying how undefeated means jack shit.
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Old 09-22-2009, 04:58 PM   #34
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Neither of those guys were jumping up in weight.

Greb was already one of the leading LHWs at that time, and had even fought at HW. Also, Tunney was not the #1 rated guy at that weight, Carpentier was.

Walker had been competing at MW for some time before fighting Flowers, and had even fought for the title once before.
Most at the time fought Tunney was the best. Walker was still Welterweight champion.
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Old 09-22-2009, 05:16 PM   #35
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Most at the time fought Tunney was the best.
No they didn't, he was a huge underdog going into the first two Greb fights; and in general he fought an uphill battle to get respect for much of his career.


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Walker was still Welterweight champion.
No he wasn't, he had lost it earlier to Pete Latzo.
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Old 09-22-2009, 05:41 PM   #36
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No they didn't, he was a huge underdog going into the first two Greb fights; and in general he fought an uphill battle to get respect for much of his career.




No he wasn't, he had lost it earlier to Pete Latzo.
Walker actually wanted to go up to fight Flowers while champion, but his management said defend your title first
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Old 09-22-2009, 05:53 PM   #37
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Walker actually wanted to go up to fight Flowers while champion, but his management said defend your title first
I don't really understand how that would figure into anything here.
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Old 09-22-2009, 05:55 PM   #38
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I don't really understand how that would figure into anything here.
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Old 09-22-2009, 06:01 PM   #39
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Default Re: Does Mayweather Deserve More Credit? (READ)

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So was Joe Calzaghe. Was his resume much cop? Nope.

Edit: I clearly rate Mayweather higher than Calzaghe but I think Kessler is a tougher opponent than Floyd has ever fought. Undefeated, optimum weight, good skills and power. Floyd has never fought anyone with all those attributes.

Just saying how undefeated means jack shit.
Sven Ottke.
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Old 09-22-2009, 06:45 PM   #40
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Default Re: Does Mayweather Deserve More Credit? (READ)

For me Mayweather cemented his greatness at 130. There are levels of greatness, but he clearly made his case for the greatest of that division's history in my personal opinion. People forget what he achieved there. The wins he chalked up are the type that make for what people call a 'stacked resume', and people like to say Corrales wasn't great, but if someone like Tony Zale is, then Corrales is in my perception. Within his own limits, the man was a great warrior to say the least. You don't have to be ultra skilled and complete stylistically to be one of the best of your era.

Anyway, moving back to Mayweather, after 130, he has moved up and had some good wins, they are not as good as what some of the champions of past years have achieved, and likely Pacquiao's are better respectively. Mayweather is a great fighter, and for a while i've been really pissed off with people saying 'he has to fight Mosley/Margarito/Cotto' otherwise he's not great. Wrong. It would be good if he fought them whilst he was lineal welterweight champion becasue that is what is right by the sport. But in order to prove he is great on any level? No. However, i have sort of changed my stance of late. Fighting Marquez was fine by me, as a novelty fight and that only. But this talk about him being the greatest if he beat JMM riled me, clear bullshit. I actually want him to 'man up' like the rest of what seems the boxing world now. I hope he fights Pacquiao, who i like so much, hope Pac gets the win there.

Also, no a different note, there was some talk of Mayweather on Ali, about his not being a complete fighter. This seemed to be a way of convincing the world that, because Mayweather is more complete than the perceived greatest, then he must be the greatest himself. Wrong. If he wants to talk the 'best' fighter ever (different to 'greatest' by definition), then a comparison with Sugar Ray Robinson is unavoidable. Robinson is clearly better than Mayweather for me, at everything bar purely defense. If any of you remember me comparing the offensive abilities of (the great) Ray Leonard and Robinson, think along them lines and it's so apparent who is undoubtedly better.
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Old 09-22-2009, 06:46 PM   #41
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Default Re: Does Mayweather Deserve More Credit? (READ)

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He had more ring activivty than Mayweather, Mayweather handn't fought in 2 years, were Marquez had been fighting regulary.

I can tell you Ring rust can play a big part, i have boxed people who have been more active than myself, and it can play a big factor.

you only know things like this unless you've stepped in a ring and laced on a glove.

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Old 09-22-2009, 06:54 PM   #42
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Does Mayweather Deserve More Credit?

No. He beat a declining former featherweight who was slow as molasses due to the extra weight and who had no business being in the same ring with him. Before the fight I thought as long as JMM still had that snap in his punches and timing he had at the lower weights he would pose some problems to Floyd, but once the bell rang it was very evident that Juan had no business fighting at welterweight.

And frankly Floyd has been cherrypicking his opposition for several years now and he has yet to fight a genuine welterweight with a pulse so far, and I ain`t expecting him to take one on anytime soon. His one and only concern is to retire undefeated at any cost so that he can say after he has hung up the gloves for good that he is the best fighter to have ever laced them up, which is a crock of shit of course.

And while he has moved up in weight succesfully, let us not begin to compare his achievements to someone like Armstrong who moved up and made it a point to face THE BEST fighters at each weight he moved up to unlike Floyd who has been carefully picking his opposition to guarantee victory. There was no such guarantee when Henry moved up to face Ross and Garcia, but he didn`t give a shit and fought them anyway to try and prove that he was better.

I`ll say this, had Floyd had the same mindset, iron will and determination that Henry had he may have actually gone on to have a notable career punctuated with many stellar wins, he would have lost a few though here and there but that is to be expected when you face the best of your era in several different weight divisions.

But no, Floyd is all about his image and how he is perceived and not about achieving greatness the legitimate way by facing the best fighters of his era, he cares about retiring undefeated first and foremost, period. For all his ability there is very little substance to little Floyd, he simply isn`t cut out of the same cloth as the fighters he claims he is leaps and bounds better than, and he never will be either if he keeps cherrypicking his opponents and taking no risks.
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Old 09-22-2009, 06:54 PM   #43
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Default Re: Does Mayweather Deserve More Credit? (READ)

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You could see the huge size advantage in person when they fought. No arguments to the contrary involing Mayweather's starting weight hold any merit, because everyone who watched the fight saw the incredible difference in size and pretty much every other physical quality in Mayweather's favor. Honestly, what do you people think you're proving with these arguments when the fight is on film for anyone to view with their own eyes? Marquez was completely out-matched and fighting at a weight he was clearly incapable at. What he did at a lower weight has no consequence on how he would fare against Mayweather. I'm very surprised so many knowledgable posters were even giving Marquez a fleeting chance in this fight. It was clear as day what the outcome would be well beforehand, and even clearer once they actually stepped into the ring.
I don't deny that Mayweather was the bigger man, but i think it should not be forgotten that it was a ****ing whitewash, in that he basically dominated every second of every single round. I mean, Hagler had a close fight with Duran when having a way bigger size advantage. Of course Duran was greater than Marquez, but fact remains that the way in which Floyd won (after a 2 year lay off) is impressive as hell.
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Old 09-22-2009, 06:55 PM   #44
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Default Re: Does Mayweather Deserve More Credit? (READ)

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I agree and I think Floyd could take more risks if he wanted to, but I dont think he wants to be in a tough grueling fight. I believe thats the reason he avoided Margarito, not because he couldnt win, but because what he would have to go through to get the win. Thats what seems to tarnish his legacy and something he has to live with if he doesnt take the fights the public wants to see him in.

That in a nutshell is the difference between Floyd and Duran. Duran lived for those type of wars, Floyd avoids them at all costs. As for Floyd's legacy however, I was quite surprised by the relatively easy win over JMM, so he deserves prop's for that. But unless he gets into the trenches with guys his own size or bigger than him, the was Duran use to, he's never going to hit the top eshlons of the sport (ie top 10 ATG status) An older Mosely would be a good start.
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Old 09-22-2009, 07:03 PM   #45
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Default Re: Does Mayweather Deserve More Credit? (READ)

Wether Marquez is great or not isn't even the question -- he's not an elite welterweight. Floyd beat a welterweight that you'd be hard-pressed to rank in the top ten.
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