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Old 09-27-2009, 01:35 PM   #1
Bill Butcher
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Default Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

I recently watched the full fight between Ali (then Clay) & Henry Cooper.

After Cooper knocked Ali down at the end of rd 4, Angelo Dundee asked for a new pair of gloves because of a small tear on Ali`s gloves in order to buy Ali more recovery time... he succeeded, Ali recieved an extra 5 seconds, he recieved 65 seconds rest instead of 60.

Just goes to show how things can be stupidly dramatized by some people, I was shocked myself when I timed it.

Just wondering how many of you guys actually knew this shit because if you listen to anyone talking about it, its made out as if Ali had a lifetime to recover.

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Old 09-27-2009, 02:11 PM   #2
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
I recently watched the full fight between Ali (then Clay) & Henry Cooper.

After Cooper knocked Ali down at the end of rd 4, Angelo Dundee asked for a new pair of gloves because of a small tear on Ali`s gloves in order to buy Ali more recovery time... he succeeded, Ali recieved an extra 5 seconds, he recieved 65 seconds rest instead of 60.

Just goes to show how things can be stupidly dramatized by some people, I was shocked myself when I timed it.

Just wondering how many of you guys actually knew this shit because if you listen to anyone talking about it, its made out as if Ali had a lifetime to recover.

Yea, I've said this a hundred times here. It's a complete exaggerated myth. Revisionism at its worst. Ali gets an extra 5 to 10 seconds at most. This is one of the things that Bert Sugar is dead on with. Some stories are acted as if people went to a dressing room to get new gloves which added another minute. It's all untrue. I'm surprised you didn't know that being such a huge Ali fan...
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Old 09-27-2009, 02:33 PM   #3
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
I recently watched the full fight between Ali (then Clay) & Henry Cooper.

After Cooper knocked Ali down at the end of rd 4, Angelo Dundee asked for a new pair of gloves because of a small tear on Ali`s gloves in order to buy Ali more recovery time... he succeeded, Ali recieved an extra 5 seconds, he recieved 65 seconds rest instead of 60.

Just goes to show how things can be stupidly dramatized by some people, I was shocked myself when I timed it.

Just wondering how many of you guys actually knew this shit because if you listen to anyone talking about it, its made out as if Ali had a lifetime to recover.

Boxing is the worst for myths. Take Barrera vs Morales II for instance. After watching that again, it's hard to accept the notion that Morales outclassed anyone that night.

Ain't that right, Bill.
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Old 09-27-2009, 02:36 PM   #4
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

Well the fact that smelling salts were illegal in a British ring is no myth and they were used between rounds, so Dundee 'cheated' in that respect. I thought it common knowledge that Ali only received about 10 seconds anyway.
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Old 09-27-2009, 02:37 PM   #5
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

angelo dundee seid in a interview he gave ali a drug to weak him up! so ali got beat by a bum like cooper! what the 33-11-2 henry cooper
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Old 09-27-2009, 02:42 PM   #6
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
Just goes to show how things can be stupidly dramatized by some people, I was shocked myself when I timed it.
Yeah, dramatized by people like, er, Ali.
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Old 09-27-2009, 03:18 PM   #7
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh View Post
Well the fact that smelling salts were illegal in a British ring is no myth and they were used between rounds, so Dundee 'cheated' in that respect. I thought it common knowledge that Ali only received about 10 seconds anyway.
Your point about the smelling salts is well taken .Though to be honest ,I don't think it materially altered the result .
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Old 09-27-2009, 03:23 PM   #8
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Your point about the smelling salts is well taken .Though to be honest ,I don't think it materially altered the result .

I don't think it did either, the events of that night have been exagerrated to a ridiculous level but that still doesn't alter the fact that Dundee 'sought' some more recovery time for Clay and, let's face it, he's standing in front of him and knows better than even Burton and Taylor what shape Cass was in- he looked badly shaken, hence what happened in the next 68-70 seconds.
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Old 09-27-2009, 03:29 PM   #9
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
Yea, I've said this a hundred times here. It's a complete exaggerated myth. Revisionism at its worst. Ali gets an extra 5 to 10 seconds at most. This is one of the things that Bert Sugar is dead on with. Some stories are acted as if people went to a dressing room to get new gloves which added another minute. It's all untrue. I'm surprised you didn't know that being such a huge Ali fan...
I own the fight with between rds cut out, I recently watched the full fight on ESPN, Ive had to rely on what others have said until recently, Henry Cooper says it was about 30 seconds extra, I didnt expect him to exaggerate THAT much.

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Old 09-27-2009, 03:31 PM   #10
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

It was no more than 5 seconds, without doubt. Im 100% on this.
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Old 09-27-2009, 03:33 PM   #11
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by Addie View Post
Boxing is the worst for myths. Take Barrera vs Morales II for instance. After watching that again, it's hard to accept the notion that Morales outclassed anyone that night.

Ain't that right, Bill.


Outclassed is too strong a word but I scored 8 rds for Erik & thats about as good as you can ever expect anyone to beat a prime Barrera by in a 12 rd mega-fight that MAB really wanted to win bad.

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Old 09-27-2009, 03:34 PM   #12
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

I'd say it was about 8 seconds but the fact that people like Ali have said he had "an extra minute" and Dundee saying he had even longer is the reason you never knew the truth. So blame them as well as Cooper.
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Old 09-27-2009, 03:36 PM   #13
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh View Post
I'd say it was about 8 seconds but the fact that people like Ali have said he had "an extra minute" and Dundee saying he had even longer is the reason you never knew the truth. So blame them as well as Cooper.
Defo 5 seconds maximium Conteh but 3 seconds dont mean shit so in the words of John Lennon & co, best to `let it be`

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Old 09-27-2009, 03:45 PM   #14
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Defo 5 seconds maximium Conteh but 3 seconds dont mean shit so in the words of John Lennon & co, best to `let it be`


You're dealing with minutiae now, the main point concenred Ali/Dundee exagerrating the time not just Cooper. Dundee even claimed he watched Lawrence of Arabia by the time Round 5 began.
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Old 09-27-2009, 03:48 PM   #15
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh View Post
Well the fact that smelling salts were illegal in a British ring is no myth and they were used between rounds, so Dundee 'cheated' in that respect.
Are you sure that it was at the time?

Because Clay smelling the salt is very visible on film, and the (British) commentators never mention it like it's anything strange. I haven't heard Cooper say anything about it either and the ref didn't react. You'd think it would have caused a bigger controversy, since it's undisputable that he received smelling salts.
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