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Old 09-27-2009, 03:53 PM   #16
Bill Butcher
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh View Post
You're dealing with minutiae now, the main point concenred Ali/Dundee exagerrating the time not just Cooper. Dundee even claimed he watched Lawrence of Arabia by the time Round 5 began.
True, why Dundee (& Ali himself) insist on saying it was longer is beyond me, it makes Henry look better & Ali worse, you`d think they would have made it their point to let everyone know the actual time.
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Old 09-27-2009, 04:00 PM   #17
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
Are you sure that it was at the time?

Because Clay smelling the salt is very visible on film, and the (British) commentators never mention it like it's anything strange. I haven't heard Cooper say anything about it either and the ref didn't react. You'd think it would have caused a bigger controversy, since it's undisputable that he received smelling salts.

You have a point mate and I have to admit it's one of the (few) 'fact-based' things I argue for in which I don't have absolute 100% certainty over. I know in 1967 they were definitely illegal and have read numerous times they were illegal even before then from decent sources (The Times, Telegraph) but not from a boxing publication.

The controversy over the fight didn't seem to appear until a few years later by accounts i have read. It looks like it's been embellished to the point where it became a news story a while after the event. A 'titbit' added years later to create a good story (like Willie Monroe claiming he heard Ali wanted to quit in Manila or Ali throwing his medal in the river).
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Old 09-27-2009, 04:07 PM   #18
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

did he actually change his gloves between rounds? i heard they couldn't find any so he didn't change gloves afterall.
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Old 09-27-2009, 04:11 PM   #19
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by groove View Post
did he actually change his gloves between rounds? i heard they couldn't find any so he didn't change gloves afterall.

That's another thing, the glove doesn't get changed, yet many versions talk about the 'replaced glove'.
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Old 09-27-2009, 04:15 PM   #20
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
It was no more than 5 seconds, without doubt. Im 100% on this.
Made Cooper a shit load of Bill & if truth be known he split it 50/50 with Harry Carpenter who was his proxy gob for 30+ years & Bruno who was Harry's toy boy, same biased **** sucking prick that wrecked Bugner's profile & had him hounded out of this country.
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Old 09-27-2009, 04:17 PM   #21
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh View Post
You have a point mate and I have to admit it's one of the (few) things I argue for in which I don't have absolute 100% certainty over. I know in 1967 they were definitely illegal and have read numerous times they were illegal even before then from decent sources (The Times, Telegraph) but not from a boxing publication.

The controversy over the fight didn't seem to appear until a few years later by accounts i have read. It looks like it's been embellished to the point where it became a news story a while after the event. A 'titbit' added years later to create a good story (like Willie Monroe claiming he heard Ali wanted to quit in Manila or Ali throwing his medal in the river).
As you said, I think it's marvellous that even Dundee himself talks like he bought Clay an extra 3-5 minutes. You think he'd know this isn't correct, but time and people's love of a good yarn is obviously stronger than reality.

Actually, some time I'd would like to get to the bottom of how many myths and lies there are in Ali's "autobiography". We all know about the medal in the river BS, but there are other things I wonder about as well. For example it's claimed that he only went to Martin's gym for the money he got from fights or some such, but did his real training in a grungier place run by a black trainer. I've never heard of that second gym anywhere else. Makes one wonder.
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Old 09-27-2009, 04:18 PM   #22
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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I own the fight with between rds cut out, I recently watched the full fight on ESPN, Ive had to rely on what others have said until recently, Henry Cooper says it was about 30 seconds extra, I didnt expect him to exaggerate THAT much.

Yeah he exaggerates big time on the Ali Dozen or Ali 65 ESPN series. He likes Ali, too, but all fighters try to boost their own legacies. It's a normal thing to try to do.

"I could've possibly beat Ali maybe if it weren't for that break, yadda yadda." Yeah Henry.
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Old 09-27-2009, 04:23 PM   #23
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

That's the book where most of these tales come from: "The Greatest" and I imagine it was the biggest selling book about Ali back then, so that's where the average Joe has gathered the most information. It's mostly full of shite spun by Richard Durham- a prominent muslim writer, with its only saving grace(s) being the whole transcript from the Frazier interview and the bits about ali's long-distance relationship with Bertand Russell, so there's some wheat amongst the chaff.
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Old 09-27-2009, 04:27 PM   #24
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

The BBC a few years back played the original live Radio feed, and showed the between round time was about 10 seconds extra.
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Old 09-27-2009, 04:59 PM   #25
Bill Butcher
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by TBooze View Post
The BBC a few years back played the original live Radio feed, and showed the between round time was about 10 seconds extra.
I timed 64 seconds from bell to bell, give or take a second.

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Old 09-27-2009, 05:25 PM   #26
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by groove View Post
did he actually change his gloves between rounds? i heard they couldn't find any so he didn't change gloves afterall.
No, Nipper Read (BBB of C official) was told to go back and get some, but as he did, it was pointed out there were a spare ringside, the round began before Read could give them to Ali's (Clay's) corner.
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Old 09-27-2009, 05:51 PM   #27
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Outclassed is too strong a word but I scored 8 rds for Erik & thats about as good as you can ever expect anyone to beat a prime Barrera by in a 12 rd mega-fight that MAB really wanted to win bad.

I had it a draw, and Barrera getting the decision was no more controversial than giving their first effort to Morales. MAB closed the better in the second fight, so it's not all that surprising he was given the verdict - especially when Morales face look like it had been hit by a truck, and he hadn't landed to many clean shots himself. It's just a shame it wasn't the war we all wanted it to be, the night had an aura about it like something special was about unfold. Fell short. I bet even as a Morales fan you don't even go back to this one all that often. Be honest, Bill.

Anyway, sorry for changing the subject.

Regarding the Cooper vs Ali controversial, I always got the sense that the time was exaggerated. The bottom line was that Clay came out of the next round and closed the show, making his prediction of a 5th round stoppage true. He was playing with Henry up until that point.
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Old 09-27-2009, 07:59 PM   #28
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
I timed 64 seconds from bell to bell, give or take a second.

that called cuting the film
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Old 09-27-2009, 08:10 PM   #29
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

I think we need to put this into perspective.

We Brits love a gallant loser. And that knockdown is arguably the most played incident in British Sports (not just boxing) history.

That ripped glove earned Dundee serious 's in book sales and went a long way to earning our 'enry a knighthood and the opportunity to splash it all over with Kevin Keegan in the showers!


It does not help either parties to actually put facts into this controversy.
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Old 09-27-2009, 09:18 PM   #30
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh View Post
Well the fact that smelling salts were illegal in a British ring is no myth and they were used between rounds, so Dundee 'cheated' in that respect. I thought it common knowledge that Ali only received about 10 seconds anyway.
Not to anyone whos sole source of information is Sir Henry Cooper

I thought you reckoned the footage was edited and it was longer than 5seconds anyway
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