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Old 09-28-2009, 08:37 AM   #46
mcvey
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

Ive just rung the BBB of C to ask when smelling salts were made illegal in British rings and he could not tell me, he did confirm that they are now illegal world wide though.
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Old 09-28-2009, 08:40 AM   #47
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
I must have missed that footage provided by TBooze, all I seen was words.

As said on a previous post, I will time it properly, bell to bell.


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Well, all's you will provide is 'words', I have timed it myself too a long while ago and got around 8 or 9 seconds I think but a radio 'live feed' is more reliable than my grainy footage of the fight. Also, while I find TBooze's opinion on most things very odd at the best of times, I can state that 'facts-wise' he's a very reliable source, much more so than some Ali ****-licker. Sorry that's just the way it is.
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Old 09-28-2009, 08:41 AM   #48
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Ive just rung the BBB of C to ask when smelling salts were made illegal in British rings and he could not tell me, he did confirm that they are now illegal world wide though.

Good investigative work there squire. I know they were illegal in 1967 because I have an article written by Reg 'with the one scotch egg' telling me so (it's nothing to do with Clay-Cooper either).
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Old 09-28-2009, 08:43 AM   #49
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

There was roughly a 35 minute break between the rounds. During this time, Ali was given smelling salts, steroids and gloves that were filled with paris of plaster. Meanwhile, Dundee has admitted that he went over to Cooper's corner and stuck his finger into the cut to make it worse.

The greatest of all time?
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Old 09-28-2009, 08:45 AM   #50
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh View Post
Well, all's you will provide is 'words', I have timed it myself too a long while ago and got around 8 or 9 seconds I think but a radio 'live feed' is more reliable than my grainy footage of the fight. Also, while I find TBooze's opinion on most things very odd at the best of times, I can state that 'facts-wise' he's a very reliable source, much more so than some Ali ****-licker. Sorry that's just the way it is.
Smoking Clay`s pole as you once put it doesnt come into it, 5 seconds of a difference aint exactly gonna make a whole lotta difference in regards to making Ali look better or worse.

Once again, your logic is faulty.
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Old 09-28-2009, 09:21 AM   #51
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
Smoking Clay`s pole as you once put it doesnt come into it, 5 seconds of a difference aint exactly gonna make a whole lotta difference in regards to making Ali look better or worse.

Once again, your logic is faulty.


That's the thing, it's you making a big deal over a few seconds, whereas no one's that bothered if it was 5 or 10, all's I've commented in this direction is by telling you you're not a great source and that's all there is to it. You've also commented on Cooper being a storyteller and have now been told that Ali and Dundee did the same, so why not spend the rest of this thread lambasting them too?
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Old 09-28-2009, 09:35 AM   #52
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh View Post
That's the thing, it's you making a big deal over a few seconds, whereas no one's that bothered if it was 5 or 10, all's I've commented in this direction is by telling you you're not a great source and that's all there is to it. You've also commented on Cooper being a storyteller and have now been told that Ali and Dundee did the same, so why not spend the rest of this thread lambasting them too?
Top part - at least we can agree on something but I still plan on timing it again just for the sake of it.

Next part - Ive already said Im baffled as to why they make it out longer because it only benefits Cooper, not Ali. What more do you want ?
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Old 09-28-2009, 10:00 AM   #53
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh View Post
Good investigative work there squire. I know they were illegal in 1967 because I have an article written by Reg 'with the one scotch egg' telling me so (it's nothing to do with Clay-Cooper either).
Well I will allways take your word. The Clay Cooper fight was 63 .
I have been trying to get in touch with Harold Alderman M B E, a boxing historian ,he would know.
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Old 09-28-2009, 10:56 AM   #54
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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As you said, I think it's marvelous that even Dundee himself talks like he bought Clay an extra 3-5 minutes. You think he'd know this isn't correct, but time and people's love of a good yarn is obviously stronger than reality.
It was always my understanding that what Angelo did was aggravate the tear in that glove, which was then used to poke and prod away at Cooper's cut, facilitating a more rapid stoppage.
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Actually, some time I'd would like to get to the bottom of how many myths and lies there are in Ali's "autobiography". We all know about the medal in the river BS, but there are other things I wonder about as well. For example it's claimed that he only went to Martin's gym for the money he got from fights or some such, but did his real training in a grungier place run by a black trainer. I've never heard of that second gym anywhere else. Makes one wonder.
Fred Stoner is that second trainer, who was in fact introduced on television along with Joe Martin as Ali's developmental mentor after Muhammad's career had concluded. (This clip of the three of them together was on youtube a while back, but I can't find it now.) When Stoner passed on, his obituary was widely published, acknowledging his prominence in Ali's evolution. Joe Martin is supposed to have given him access to televised exposure and the small payoffs provided by this. (Technically, this should have made him as ineligible for the Olympics as Jim Thorp, but we all know what a joke that's always been in practice.)

To me, the outstanding goof in Richard Durham's book is the identification of Zack Clayton as the referee for Ali's rematch with Liston, which instantly called into question the veracity of less established details. However, in light of the recognition and credit Fred Stoner received through the remainder of his life, the account of Ali's involvement with both him and Martin rings truer.
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:00 AM   #55
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by The Kurgan View Post
Dundee has admitted that he went over to Cooper's corner and stuck his finger into the cut to make it worse.
Sticking his finger into the tear of his guy's glove to aggravate it more seems perfectly efficient to me.
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:21 AM   #56
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
I recently watched the full fight between Ali (then Clay) & Henry Cooper.

After Cooper knocked Ali down at the end of rd 4, Angelo Dundee asked for a new pair of gloves because of a small tear on Ali`s gloves in order to buy Ali more recovery time... he succeeded, Ali recieved an extra 5 seconds, he recieved 65 seconds rest instead of 60.

Just goes to show how things can be stupidly dramatized by some people, I was shocked myself when I timed it.

Just wondering how many of you guys actually knew this shit because if you listen to anyone talking about it, its made out as if Ali had a lifetime to recover.

I know. Any time someone feels like slagging Ali off,this always gets brought up. The time delay has indeed been grossly exaggerated over the years.
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:32 AM   #57
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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I know. Any time someone feels like slagging Ali off,this always gets brought up. The time delay has indeed been grossly exaggerated over the years.
Mendoza wants him dsqd because Dundee jumped into the ring after the bell had rung to finish the round .
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:55 AM   #58
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Originally Posted by Duodenum View Post
It was always my understanding that what Angelo did was aggravate the tear in that glove, which was then used to poke and prod away at Cooper's cut, facilitating a more rapid stoppage.
Haven't heard that version before.

Quote:
Fred Stoner is that second trainer, who was in fact introduced on television along with Joe Martin as Ali's developmental mentor after Muhammad's career had concluded. (This clip of the three of them together was on youtube a while back, but I can't find it now.) When Stoner passed on, his obituary was widely published, acknowledging his prominence in Ali's evolution. Joe Martin is supposed to have given him access to televised exposure and the small payoffs provided by this. (Technically, this should have made him as ineligible for the Olympics as Jim Thorp, but we all know what a joke that's always been in practice.)
Thanks for the info!

Quote:
To me, the outstanding goof in Richard Durham's book is the identification of Zack Clayton as the referee for Ali's rematch with Liston, which instantly called into question the veracity of less established details. However, in light of the recognition and credit Fred Stoner received through the remainder of his life, the account of Ali's involvement with both him and Martin rings truer.
Walcott must have payed him off.
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Old 09-28-2009, 12:05 PM   #59
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

If smelling salts were indeed illegal, neither the commentator nor the ref did a very good job. Look at around 3:39-3:43. How could they have missed that? The ref was right there.

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Old 09-28-2009, 12:09 PM   #60
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Default Re: Clay vs Cooper 1963 - The between rds contraversy.

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Made Cooper a shit load of Bill & if truth be known he split it 50/50 with Harry Carpenter who was his proxy gob for 30+ years & Bruno who was Harry's toy boy, same biased **** sucking prick that wrecked Bugner's profile & had him hounded out of this country.
you've got a good point there.
cooper didn't speak to harry gibbs for years after the bugner fight either.
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