Luis Angel Firpo vs Ken Norton

[cotto20]

Who wins and how????

[junior-soprano]

norton within 5 rounds by ko or tko.

[Bummy Davis]

Norton was better skilled but he could get caught and backed up vs Firpo....Ken did not like punchers but other than that Ken wins

[Duodenum]

I don't like Ken's cross-armed defense against Firpo's overhand right. Luis showed against Bill Brennan that he could come over the top with it for as long as it took. At some point, Norton would get nailed with it.

[TheGreatA]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

I don't like Ken's cross-armed defense against Firpo's overhand right. Luis showed against Bill Brennan that he could come over the top with it for as long as it took. At some point, Norton would get nailed with it.

Then again it's tough to like Firpo's lack of any kind of defense against Norton's overhand right, left hook, uppercut and body punches.

Firpo could upset him, especially if Norton fights dumb and is backed up against the ropes as he often was against punchers, but if he swarms all over Firpo and gradually wears him down with body punches as he did to Jose Luis Garcia the second time they fought, he should win.

[Duodenum]

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

Then again it's tough to like Firpo's lack of any kind of defense against Norton's overhand right, left hook, uppercut and body punches.

Firpo could upset him, especially if Norton fights dumb and is backed up against the ropes as he often was against punchers, but if he swarms all over Firpo and gradually wears him down with body punches as he did to Jose Luis Garcia the second time they fought, he should win.

Yes, and Norton should win, but what's disturbing to me is how Kenny froze when he realized, "This guy can hurt me!" Foreman and Shavers didn't have much of a defense either, and it didn't matter. Norton was far too smart to make the mistakes he sometimes did. He's obviously the wild card in this scenario. We know how Luis would fight him. Firpo did the same thing with Brennan and Willard, driving down from up high with right after right, teeing off until his opponent crumpled.

Norton was a respectable puncher, but so was Brennan. I'm not convinced that Ken was as durable as K.O. Bill, or even an aging Willard. (As Jess was coming off that 11th round stoppage of Floyd Johnson, I consider Firpo's knockout of him to be somewhat underrated.) On an all time basis, Norton's obviously superior to Shavers, Cooney (and perhaps even Foreman), but H2H is something else, and Firpo may have the same edge as Earnie and Gerry.

[TheGreatA]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

Yes, and Norton should win, but what's disturbing to me is how Kenny froze when he realized, "This guy can hurt me!" Foreman and Shavers didn't have much of a defense either, and it didn't matter. Norton was far too smart to make the mistakes he sometimes did. He's obviously the wild card in this scenario. We know how Luis would fight him. Firpo did the same thing with Brennan and Willard, driving down from up high with right after right, teeing off until his opponent crumpled.

Norton was a respectable puncher, but so was Brennan. I'm not convinced that Ken was as durable as K.O. Bill, or even an aging Willard. (As Jess was coming off that 11th round stoppage of Floyd Johnson, I consider Firpo's knockout of him to be somewhat underrated.) On an all time basis, Norton's obviously superior to Shavers, Cooney (and perhaps even Foreman), but H2H is something else, and Firpo may have the same edge as Earnie and Gerry.

Duane Bobick however had a reputation as a puncher and Norton went right at him and KO'd him. Garcia had knocked him out before but Norton grit his teeth and walked through him. Quarry could punch also.

He could "freeze" but I think Firpo was simply too crude and defenseless to truly be favoured in this match-up.

[url]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=RICD8ojVQbE[/url]

[url]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=5uj7oBXwwMo[/url]

[janitor]

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

He could "freeze" but I think Firpo was simply too crude and defenseless to truly be favoured in this match-up.

[URL]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=RICD8ojVQbE[/URL]

[URL]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=5uj7oBXwwMo[/URL]

Was Firpo really any more crude than Oscar Bonavena?

Stylisticaly he was a typical rough around the edges South American heavyweight but make no mistake he could be sneaky with his punches. Watch his fight with Jess Willard to see this.

[TheGreatA]

Originally Posted by janitor

Was Firpo really any more crude than Oscar Bonavena?

Stylisticaly he was a typical rough around the edges South American heavyweight but make no mistake he could be sneaky with his punches. Watch his fight with Jess Willard to see this.

Yes he was from what I've seen although I haven't seen him fight Jess Willard, unfortunately.

[URL]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=JS7MaE99GBs[/URL]

[URL]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=q1RCFcWwEOk[/URL]

[Duodenum]

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

Duane Bobick however had a reputation as a puncher and Norton went right at him and KO'd him.

Thanks to Teo Stevenson, Bobick had already displayed susceptibility to a crushing right hand, and we all know now what a fatally slow starter he was. (Frazier actually got out of the gate fairly quickly in his title defenses against Ramos, Ziggy, Quarry [64 punches in round one] and Daniels. Duane was actually the slow starter Smoke is often stereotyped as being.)

Garcia had knocked him out before but Norton grit his teeth and walked through him.

An excellent win for Ken, but also a situation where the poorly conditioned Garcia weighed 25 out of shape pounds more than for their first match. (That Norton destroyed him with body shots testifies to this.)

Quarry could punch also.

Yes, but Jerry was ringworn and shot by then, and Norton was mentally ready for him in what may have been the most impressive showing of his career. Quarry had good power, but not the top shelf power needed to drop the likes of a Frazier or Lyle.

He could "freeze" but I think Firpo was simply too crude and defenseless to truly be favoured in this match-up.

Ken should be favored, just as he was for the first match with Garcia. I'd take the odds.

A key question has to do with just how hard Firpo could hit. His power may have been somewhat overestimated. Then again, just how susceptible would Norton have been to that right over the top? True, Firpo was crude, but Ken didn't get starched by slick boxing. Cobb and LeDoux didn't have great power or defensive skill, yet gave him hell. (Still, he was robbed outrageously against LeDoux, and neutralized by a thumb in the eye.) Shavers, Foreman and Cooney were hardly artisans.

Norton/Bonavena would have been a tremendous help in speculating about this outcome. I don't expect that Norton would catch Firpo cold as he did Bobick, nor would he wear him down quickly as he did Quarry. He'd be facing someone capable of mounting a sustained attack. (Frankly, I'm surprised that I'm not the only one giving Firpo even a puncher's chance. I expected everybody else to say, "No way!" It's a good discussion, regardless.)

[TheGreatA]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

Thanks to Teo Stevenson, Bobick had already displayed susceptibility to a crushing right hand, and we all know now what a fatally slow starter he was. (Frazier actually got out of the gate fairly quickly in his title defenses against Ramos, Ziggy, Quarry [64 punches in round one] and Daniels. Duane was actually the slow starter Smoke is often stereotyped as being.)An excellent win for Ken, but also a situation where the poorly conditioned Garcia weighed 25 out of shape pounds more than for their first match. (That Norton destroyed him with body shots testifies to this.)Yes, but Jerry was ringworn and shot by then, and Norton was mentally ready for him in what may have been the most impressive showing of his career. Quarry had good power, but not the top shelf power needed to drop the likes of a Frazier or Lyle.Ken should be favored, just as he was for the first match with Garcia. I'd take the odds.

Bobick may or may not have been a slow-starter but he had scored most of his wins as a pro inside the first four rounds.

Don't really know how one could describe Jerry Quarry as ringworn and shot while calling Jess Willard an "underrated" win. Quarry was certainly not at his very best but he could still punch and he landed some leather on Norton who took his punches well.

Bill Brennan, while a good fighter in his time, was on his way out at the time Firpo took him on.

A key question has to do with just how hard Firpo could hit. His power may have been somewhat overestimated. Then again, just how susceptible would Norton have been to that right over the top? True, Firpo was crude, but Ken didn't get starched by slick boxing. Cobb and LeDoux didn't have great power or defensive skill, yet gave him hell. (Still, he was robbed outrageously against LeDoux, and neutralized by a thumb in the eye.) Shavers, Foreman and Cooney were hardly artisans.

Foreman got to Norton with sweeping uppercuts that went through his cross-arm defense. Shavers crippled him with looping right hands to the body as well as left hooks and uppercuts after Norton had been hurt to the body. Cooney blasted a shot Norton.

Firpo's wild windmill rights would be no more likely to land on Norton than Norton's overhand rights on him. Firpo was not exactly granite-jawed and he had no defense whatsoever, even compared to Foreman and Shavers.

Norton/Bonavena would have been a tremendous help in speculating about this outcome. I don't expect that Norton would catch Firpo cold as he did Bobick, nor would he wear him down quickly as he did Quarry. He'd be facing someone capable of mounting a sustained attack. (Frankly, I'm surprised that I'm not the only one giving Firpo even a puncher's chance. I expected everybody else to say, "No way!" It's a good discussion, regardless.)

I'd imagine most people will give Firpo a puncher's chance. There's a notion that Norton would simply freeze up under any puncher which in my opinion is completely wrong. He froze up against who in my opinion are two of the most powerful punchers of all time.

Bonavena, while not exactly a technical boxer, was still more well-schooled than Firpo was. Firpo's boxing consisted of throwing a wild right hand, clinching, reset, throwing a wild right hand, clinching, reset and little else. He could punch and more so than that he was very strong and physical but so was Ken Norton.

[Russell]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

Cobb and LeDoux didn't have great power or defensive skill, yet gave him hell. (Still, he was robbed outrageously against LeDoux, and neutralized by a thumb in the eye.) Shavers, Foreman and Cooney were hardly artisans.

Norton was a dead man walking by that time in his career. Some might be fooled by his ever impressive physique, he was gone by then. The fights you mentioned were his last two before the Cooney decapitation.

He really beat the shit out of Cobb as well, I have that fight. He was hitting Cobb with shots put Holmes to shame while being very, very slick defensively. Cobb looked like a bobblehead dozens of times over the course of that fight.

Oh, and Cobb lost to Norton one fight after beating Shavers. That was maybe the best Cobb we ever saw, he came in at a good weight and fought well against Norton.

[Duodenum]

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

Bobick may or may not have been a slow-starter but he had scored most of his wins as a pro inside the first four rounds.

Duane described himself this way after Tate wiped him out with those four right leads. How any successful amateur could be a slow starter in the pros is baffling though.

Don't really know how one could describe Jerry Quarry as ringworn and shot while calling Jess Willard an "underrated" win. Quarry was certainly not at his very best but he could still punch and he landed some leather on Norton who took his punches well.

Well, Floyd Johnson was a reputable contender at the time, so this was a credible win for Jess. Jerry had just beaten Scrap Iron for a third time, but before that he'd been taken apart by Frazier in their rematch.

However, Quarry had been taking punches to the head since he was a toddler, while Willard got off to a late start. I think you'll find that the Foreman's, Lyle's, Moore's and Holmes's who are able to continue successful careers at an advanced age usually took up boxing later in life as a mature decision, not in early childhood. Jess was considerably older, but had more left in the tank. (I question the wisdom of letting children get hit in the head, and wonder if the minimum age for competition shouldn't be raised considerably.)

Bill Brennan, while a good fighter in his time, was on his way out at the time Firpo took him on.

He was indeed on the downhill slide by this time. What I find interesting here is that Luis demonstrated good power and energy in a longer match on film. He registered a pair of 12th round stoppages, and one in the 14th. His stamina and conditioning seem to have been very good.

Foreman got to Norton with sweeping uppercuts that went through his cross-arm defense. Shavers crippled him with looping right hands to the body as well as left hooks and uppercuts after Norton had been hurt to the body.

Two different ways to take him out, but sharing the ability to hurt him, keep him hurt, and in retreat. Of course I'm positing that Firpo would come over Norton's left, and be able to maintain pressure if he staggers Ken.

Cooney blasted a shot Norton.

I don't recall anybody being surprised at the outcome of this one (although the fact that it was Gerry's right which started both Ken and Jimmy Young towards their demise was startling), but Cooney would have always been a stylistic nightmare for Norton, whose body would have been open to Gerry's hook.

Firpo's wild windmill rights would be no more likely to land on Norton than Norton's overhand rights on him. Firpo was not exactly granite-jawed and he had no defense whatsoever, even compared to Foreman and Shavers.

Because of Firpo's height and upright stance, I actually believe Ken's overhand right could be a valuable weapon for him in this one. As for Firpo, his right might be a low percentage tool, but he'd keep it coming as long as the action continued.

I'd imagine most people will give Firpo a puncher's chance. There's a notion that Norton would simply freeze up under any puncher which in my opinion is completely wrong. He froze up against who in my opinion are two of the most powerful punchers of all time.

This is where the question of just how hard Firpo hit would come into play. Does he have the firepower to replicate what Garcia, Foreman, Shavers and Cooney did, or would this be a war reminiscent of what the aging Norton had with Cobb?

Bonavena, while not exactly a technical boxer, was still more well-schooled than Firpo was. Firpo's boxing consisted of throwing a wild right hand, clinching, reset, throwing a wild right hand, clinching, reset and little else. He could punch and more so than that he was very strong and physical but so was Ken Norton.

Luis would be trying to brutilize Ken on the inside, roughing him up in the clinches to wear him down, turning it into a brawl. He had some size which Bonavena lacked, and would have used it. Norton was a gentleman and classy sportsman, but he might need to get nasty here. Otherwise, a brawl wouldn't be at all to his benefit. Checking footage of Firpo, he wasn't as uni dimensional as I remember him being.

[Bummy Davis]

Norton always showed trouble backing up, it did not suit his style and when hurt it was evident...Bobick was a stand strait fighter with a built up record...and was KO'd by Kallie Knoetzee and John Tate in the same manor. Norton was on the Down slide vs Ledoux but Scott was never more than a trail horse and he had Ken down 2 times in the last rd and lucky to survive. He was shot vs Cooney and Prime vs Shavers and Foreman but Young vs Garcia 185 lb Garcia.....When Norton fought Quarry, it was a untrained version and a fighter who at the time was addicted admittingly to cocaine and alchohal....Quarry was shot.......Norton had a good style vs the Ali type who he could back up and overpower but was Zip against the punchers...I am not saying that Firpo would or could win just that he had a punchers chance

[zadfrak]

Exactly.

What it does do is to make a lot of guys dangerous for Kenny. And if you put Ken in with say 3 dangerous guys, he'll lose a minimum of once. Firpo/Galento/Satterfield/Tua/Lyle/ and so on are dangerous guys stylewise.