The George Foreman who lost to Ali vs the Mike Tyson who lost to Buster Dougals

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by Chris ******

Pete Foreman wasnt deserving of a title shot vs Tyson? Alot of the stiffs Foreman fought Tyson fought as well. People like David Jaco, Rocky Sekorski, Mark Young and Mike Jamison. But Foreman wasnt deserving? Its not like Tyson was fighting hall of fame class fighters either.

While we were eating, Benton said, "Bobby, what's up with Foreman and Tyson, how come they're not fighting each other on the 16th? Isn't that the fight that King was trying to make?" He said, " Georgie,You'll never believe this but, Fuckin' Tyson is scared shit less of Foreman and wants no part of him. I was there when Don was trying to make the fight. He was telling Tyson that Foreman represented huge money, plus he was old and slow and would be no problem. Tyson got up and screamed at King saying, 'I'm not fight in' that Fuckin' animal, if you love the motherfucker so much, you fight him!'"

Goodman stated that Tyson said Foreman was much better than people thought, and was a dangerous fight for any of the top heavyweights. Goodman proceeded to explain how Tyson was calling Foreman a big con man, and explained that the grandpop act was just a front. He said Tyson saw Foreman as trying to set up the boxing world into thinking he was a pushover, knowing that he really wasn't. Tyson said Foreman was a wolf in sheep's clothing. Goodman continued to say that after seeing Tyson's response to King trying to push him into a fight with Foreman, he had no doubt that Tyson had fear of Foreman. He also said that from that point on, he felt that if Foreman and Tyson ever fought, Foreman would knock Tyson out!

Throughout the lunch Goodman, Duva, Benton, and myself shared stories and thoughts on the fight game. Out of the blue Goodman said, "Oh I remember why else Tyson wanted no parts of Foreman. He said that King had found out from Steve Lott that Tyson and Cus D'Amato used to watch the Frazier-Foreman fight over and over." He continued saying that Tyson loved that fight because he was awed by Foreman's power and Frazier's toughness and how he kept getting up after every knockdown. He also said that Lott told King that Cus sat alongside Tyson saying, "It's suicide against Foreman if you're short and fight a swarming attacking style like Marciano or Frazier," never figuring that Foreman could be a possible Tyson opponent down the road. He said that Cus said the only fighters who had a chance against Foreman were, tall rangy fighters who could fight him from a distance while moving away from him, and no way any swarmer could beat Foreman by going to him.

Those are the words of the man who actually had a hand in trying to make the Foreman-Tyson fight, and was in the room when the negotiations broke down. Over the years, I've talked to many people who were involved with Tyson and Foreman and they all verify the story, every one of them. I have also talked to people who were involved with promoting Foreman, including Ron Weathers who promoted a few of Foreman's comeback fights. He told me the same story. The fight didn't happen because of Tyson being fearful of losing to George. Bob Arum also said that he dreamed of making Foreman-Tyson. He said it would be huge money and that Foreman would stop Tyson easier than he did Frazier. This is something Arum often repeated to the press. I have also heard this from George's brother Roy who was his business manager. I co-hosted a boxing show with Roy in Atlantic City for a little less than two months and this was a regular topic when discussing Tyson. Anyone who covered boxing at the time or knew any of the involved parties knew of this. It's not breaking news.

It is absolutely a fact that Mike Tyson was afraid to fight 41-year-old George Foreman--the same Foreman who Evander Holyfield would fight and beat in April of 1991. I have not a doubt that had Foreman and Tyson fought anytime between 1990 and 1997 that Foreman would have knocked Tyson out inside of three rounds. Tyson just has nothing to beat Foreman with; his edge in hand speed would have been a non-factor. He can't beat him by backing away, and he would have gotten his head handed to him if he brought the fight to Foreman. In addition, Foreman was bigger, stronger, tougher and hit harder. Not to mention the fact that Foreman had a better chin and no fear or doubt, unlike Tyson, who was full of fear and self-doubt.

Think about it, Foreman-Tyson was the biggest fight that could have been made in 1990. Foreman was perceived to be an easy fight for Tyson, and it would have been his biggest payday to date. There can only be one reason why Tyson didn't fight Foreman, and that's because he feared losing to him.

I haven't a morsel of a doubt that Tyson just doesn't match up with Foreman, and he knows it. If Tyson of 1990 was afraid of an old Foreman, think how petrified he would of been of a prime Foreman, the one who stared down both Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali in 1973 and 1974.

Surprisingly a great post. Good find with the article.

The thing is, I was speaking in a Rating term Foreman didn't earn that shot really. We can't say he ducked Tyson, but Tyson was evidently fearful and had zero intentions of fighting Foreman. The money was there, but others well tell you Foreman never deserved and Tyson wasn't scared. All the evidence and accounts say the opposite, though. If the money was there, there's really no excuse other than Tyson intentionally avoided Big George.

Originally Posted by la-califa

In the late rounds with Peralta George was exhausted & throwing wild looping punches. Against Ron Lyle, Foreman almost fell over due to exhaustion rather than being hurt by Lyle & scored the big knockout punches in the fifth. Plus stamina cost George dearly as he tired & lost the fight against Jimmy Young. In his earlier part of his career Foreman was a free swinger & it took a tremendous amout of energy from him.

You do realize the story behind the Peralta bout? Foreman's cornerman and Saddler told him to pick up the pace around the 9th round. THey said, "It's the last round... Go get em!" Foreman gave everything he had in round 9. Once his corner told him there was a round left he was exhausted and pissed off. They didn't want to lose his invincibility aura while wanting to test him too.

[lefthook31]

Originally Posted by PetethePrince

What don't you believe.

The superfight was notoriously talked about even after the Schultz fight. Foreman talked about the fight in the late 80's and how the money was there with a 20 million dollar offer. Everyone can talk about deserving or worth it. The fight could have happened. Foreman before and during his championship reign because the money and excitement was there.

Yes but Arum was promoting George. At that point Tyson just got out of prison. He wanted the titles. He made 20 million fighting Peter McNeeley. He didnt need Foreman for anything but a belt, but Foreman lost. There is a magazine I believe it was in 95, I still have it somewhere and it has all the posturing by both sides. I think the fight was actually closer to happening in the 90's before Tyson went to jail and while George was not connected to Arum.

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by lefthook31

Im not comparing anything, but reality was he wasnt on the elite level of boxing during his comeback. Politics and promoters kept Foreman and Tyson from fighting each other far more than some theory that Tyson was scared of him. Holmes was a heck of a lot better in his comeback than Foreman ever was and Tyson destroyed him.

Wrong. The money was there. Politics and promoters weren't. There are tons of accounts on the subject from Goodman, King, Arum, and Foreman. Holmes is a totally different style matchup. The money was much more for a Foreman vs Tyson bout than a Holmes one... so why did that one happen. Honestly Foreman was better in his comeback - you're obviously playing part as a big Tyson fan or a Foreman hater for saying Holmes was a heck of a lot better in his comeback. Talk about hyperbole.

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by lefthook31

Yes but Arum was promoting George. At that point Tyson just got out of prison. He wanted the titles. He made 20 million fighting Peter McNeeley. He didnt need Foreman for anything but a belt, but Foreman lost. There is a magazine I believe it was in 95, I still have it somewhere and it has all the posturing by both sides. I think the fight was actually closer to happening in the 90's before Tyson went to jail and while George was not connected to Arum.

It could have happened in the late 80's, but Foreman really didn't have a strong claim to earn that shot.

Tyson lost, and it still could've happened in the early 90's but that would be less likely to happen.

Foreman won the title and was talking a Tyson storm after the Moore and Schultz victories. Foreman still had the WBU after the Schultz stripping. Besides, Foreman may not have been stripped if a Tyson fight was proposed.

Tyson came back and signed a 5 fight deal. He wanted no Foreman, and lined up non-threats as his opposition.

You honestly think Tyson would make more against McNeely than Foreman?

The money was there, Tyson just didn't want Big George.

[lefthook31]

Originally Posted by PetethePrince

Wrong. The money was there. Politics and promoters weren't. There are tons of accounts on the subject from Goodman, King, Arum, and Foreman. Holmes is a totally different style matchup. The money was much more for a Foreman vs Tyson bout than a Holmes one... so why did that one happen. Honestly Foreman was better in his comeback - you're obviously playing part as a big Tyson fan or a Foreman hater for saying Holmes was a heck of a lot better in his comeback. Talk about hyperbole.

Well lets post those accounts up. In my opinion Holmes was better. Just beating Mercer eclipses anyone Foreman beat.
Do you think Holmes really would have had problems with the likes of Axel Shultz or Tommy Morrison? In retropsect I could see Foreman having problems with some of the fighters Holmes beat, especially Mercer. Fact is George was carefully matched, much more than Holmes who had to take fights that stylistically werent the best for him.
Im not a Foreman hater, I like George and I think he showed a lot of courage in his comeback fights. He took a lot of beatings, some paid off and some didnt, but overall he was a tough guy, but his skills were clearly not what they once were, and to me his whole second career was a big carefully calculated exhibition.

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by lefthook31

Well lets post those accounts up. In my opinion Holmes was better. Just beating Mercer eclipses anyone Foreman beat.
Do you think Holmes really would have had problems with the likes of Axel Shultz or Tommy Morrison? In retropsect I could see Foreman having problems with some of the fighters Holmes beat, especially Mercer. Fact is George was carefully matched, much more than Holmes who had to take fights that stylistically werent the best for him.
Im not a Foreman hater, I like George and I think he showed a lot of courage in his comeback fights. He took a lot of beatings, some paid off and some didnt, but overall he was a tough guy, but his skills were clearly not what they once were, and to me his whole second career was a big carefully calculated exhibition.

Mercer > Moorer?

Can't say I agree with that especially looking at their talents and abilities as fighters. Moorer beat Holy if you've forgot. Schultz would've been tough for an aging Holmes but a much better matchup for him than Foreman. Morrison could've arguably blown Holmes out, but I think had the tools and pressure to bother an old Foreman. Mercer was perfect for Holmes because he was tough but easy to be out-boxed. Didn't bring enough pressure or foot-speed to the table really. Morrison has the power and style to make Holmes look really bad (Knockdowns/KO, etc). Foreman did okay, but Morrison fought a complete backwards fight. Impressive that a brawler/slugger felt that much threatened to hit and move. For Morrison's style, I think it's safe to say he effectively ran against Foreman. Surely he out-boxed him, but he completely reverted to trying to capitalize on the slowness of the aging Foreman.

[Chris Warren]

PeteThePrince you make alot of good point but you even you can't get Tyson fanboy to admit the truth. Tyson fanboys are the worse fans, you can explain something to them like you would a child but they will never get it. You can tell them that Foreman's one shot power is greatest because people like Holyfield who fought Tyson, Lewis, Bowe, and Foreman confirmed this and they will find some stupid way to try to prove it isnt.

[lefthook31]

Originally Posted by PetethePrince

Mercer > Moorer?

Can't say I agree with that especially looking at their talents and abilities as fighters. Moorer beat Holy if you've forgot. Schultz would've been tough for an aging Holmes but a much better matchup for him than Foreman. Morrison could've arguably blown Holmes out, but I think had the tools and pressure to bother an old Foreman. Mercer was perfect for Holmes because he was tough but easy to be out-boxed. Didn't bring enough pressure or foot-speed to the table really. Morrison has the power and style to make Holmes look really bad (Knockdowns/KO, etc). Foreman did okay, but Morrison fought a complete backwards fight. Impressive that a brawler/slugger felt that much threatened to hit and move. For Morrison's style, I think it's safe to say he effectively ran against Foreman. Surely he out-boxed him, but he completely reverted to trying to capitalize on the slowness of the aging Foreman.

When was Holmes knocked down besides Tyson? Mercer was beaten by Holyfield in a very close fight, and the Moorer fight was just as close and Holy was having health issues at that time. My point is more top level fighters would have given Foreman a much tougher time than Holmes due to their styles.
Chris ******, shut the hell up.

[Dave_JR]

Originally Posted by Chris ******

Exactly Unforgiven. Tyson was to chicken shyt to fight a old fat bald Foreman because he knew he would lose and he would be destroyed by the Foreman who fought Ali.

Tell Tyson s a chicken shit to his face,please

[My2Sense]

Originally Posted by Quitali Bitchko

Kevin Rooney said he heard Tyson was 20 pounds overweight 2 weeks before the Douglas fight (I also remember reading this) and starved himself to lose the weight, Rooney also noted he immedatly saw Tyson's body was ˙˙flabby˙˙ and not in proper shape. Tyson was apparently also having group sex and a party the night before the fight.

This is all just rumor and speculation though. No one actually knows what kind of preparation Tyson had for this or any other fight except the people who actually worked with him. There were always stories of his galavanting and friction in his training camp even under Rooney, but it's only made a persistent issue here simply because he lost. As far as him supposedly "looking flabby" (to quote Rooney), he actually looked even chunkier in a few fights with Rooney, including his title winning fight with Berbick. Neither his weight nor his appearance here were anything outstandingly different from previous fights.

[Chris Warren]

Dave Jr you might be afraid of a rapist who beats on women but I am not. I am 6'2 230. No man scares me, you might fear midgets like Tyson with a lisp but I dont. I would spit in his face and once he realized I wasnt afraid of him he would lay down like does when ever any other person stood up to him.

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by lefthook31

When was Holmes knocked down besides Tyson? Mercer was beaten by Holyfield in a very close fight, and the Moorer fight was just as close and Holy was having health issues at that time. My point is more top level fighters would have given Foreman a much tougher time than Holmes due to their styles.

So? How is that relevant? That should further boost Foreman's legacy. He was a belt-holder and doing better than he should've been. Moorer is better than Holmes best win in Mercer. The way Foreman won isn't relevant either. He out-smarted him, and set him up. Holmes could outbox Mercer. Do you think Mercer would beat Foreman, too?

The fact that at 48 Foreman beat Briggs who actually gave Lewis problems is enough to show that Foreman's comeback reign was much more impressive than Holmes. Just the Moore and Briggs fights - add the rest and the impressive 20 or so KO streak and the other fighters he beat (Even the disputed ones) It's miles difference. You said Holmes comeback was much more impressive. That's ludicrous.

And how was the Mercer vs Holy fight closer than the Holy vs MOorer fight? Moorer is a better fighter, and Moorer beat Holyfield in a close and perhaps disputable decision. Holy beat Mercer out-right in a non-disputable decision. Really holding on to straws now.

Originally Posted by Chris ******

PeteThePrince you make alot of good point but you even you can't get Tyson fanboy to admit the truth. Tyson fanboys are the worse fans, you can explain something to them like you would a child but they will never get it. You can tell them that Foreman's one shot power is greatest because people like Holyfield who fought Tyson, Lewis, Bowe, and Foreman confirmed this and they will find some stupid way to try to prove it isnt.

Yeah, Tyson fans can go overboard. It's like one day he's this invincible monster that's the GOAT and untouchable, but 6 weeks later he's past his prime. It's silly, and over-inflated due to his dominance against his opposition and certain opponents. Of course, Tyson is and was a killer - but that doesn't translate a killer to everyone. Especially in a sport where styles make fights. Tyson fanatics usually say he hit harder than Foreman too. By those are just the pre-pubescent youtube commentors you see. Yes, Holyfield confirmed that Foreman hit him with the hardest shots he had ever been hit with on Foreman's Ringside on ESPN Classic. We're talking an old Foreman here, too.

As for Tyson and Foreman. The fight could've happened many times. The money was there, and there's no doubt that it would have been a superfight, especially won Foreman was champion. This fight could've reigned in Tyson loads of money in a big way like the ones he had with Holyfield and Lewis. But people argue he didn't need it. Yeah, maybe he didn't need an extra belt slap. But in terms of public interest and a business sense, it made a ton of sense. Tyson just didn't want any part of Foreman... and who could blame him?

Originally Posted by Chris ******

Dave Jr you might be afraid of a rapist who beats on women but I am not. I am 6'2 230. No man scares me, you might fear midgets like Tyson with a lisp but I dont. I would spit in his face and once he realized I wasnt afraid of him he would lay down like does when ever any other person stood up to him.

Funniest post of the year.

[easibo]

in primes though im saying tyson becuz tyson has the strenght to hold his own vs forman and tysons hella fast

[laxpdx]

I say Foreman. When Mike Tyson comes in, George is there waiting.

[AnthonyJ74]

Originally Posted by Chris ******

Quitali is a moron so we shouldnt take anything he says seriously or any Tyson fanboy. George Foreman called out Tyson numerous times during his comeback and Tyson declined out of fear. I think there is a little acticle on this site that explains how Tyson avoided Foreman out of fears. After a while Foreman said he was no longer interested in fighting Tyson becuase it would only be a media circus ( This was after Tyson went to jail for rape).

Tyson feared anybody who stood up to him. If a fat slob with big titties like Douglas could destroy Tyson then guys like Bowe, Foreman, Tua ect ect ect would of killed him.

Foreman starting calling out Tyson early in Foreman's comeback, after he had a handful of fights. George wanted a big money fight against Tyson; that was why he was making so much noise about Tyson. He was trying to get the public's support in helping him (Foreman) get a shot against Mike Tyson. Foreman was bowling over tomato cans and calling for Tyson. Foreman was nowhere near the top 10 at the time.

And Douglas wasn't fat and sloppy against Tyson. He was 231lbs!