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Old 10-20-2009, 10:05 AM   #16
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

Def wouldn't last more than 4 rounds. Anything possible.
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:17 AM   #17
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

I see it similar to Foreman-Frazier. Frazier is a pressure fighter, Tyson is a bomber. Bad style matchup for Frazier. Prime Tyson had the speed, accuracy, and knockout power in both hands to make it work. Prime Frazier also weighed 205.....Tyson did very well against guys smaller than him. Prime Tyson has the chin and conditioning to take a lot of shots as well.

But to answer the question---there is always a chance. Especially with a fighter as great Frazier.
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Old 10-20-2009, 12:19 PM   #18
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

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Everything Joe does, Tyson does better: Better head movement for defense, more one - punch power. Joe had the heart and stamina but not the tools to defeat Tyson. Not having Foreman's height and reach isn't an issue, Tyson struggled with taller fighters who could box well like Tony Tucker. In a fight where he would be the slightly taller guy, he would be unstoppable.
Disagree with you ramalinga.

Tyson did not have better head movement than Frazier. Tyson was different than Frazier and used shoulder slips more on both sides. Frazier prefered to bob, weave and roll under punches, especially against people who tried to hook with him. Besides, Tyson's head movement stops after the middle rounds when fatigue sets in. Ruddock, Tucker, Holyfield and Lewis hit him easier as the fights developed. Tyson does have better one punch right handed power, there's no question about that. Joe's left hook, though was a deadly shot and what's forgotten is the fact that he was a converted southpaw.
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Old 10-20-2009, 01:56 PM   #19
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

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Please try and follow the thread

1 - My opinion is that Tyson could be timed, yes in his prime. Yes, this opinion has been expressed earlier in the thread.

2 - I didn't raise the issue of Lewis-Tyson. It was raised by another poster in regards to Tyson's punch resistance. My reply was as narrow as this point, I was at no time trying to match Prime Frazier with Lewis Tyson.

3 - There are absolutely things to be learned about fighters post-prime, in the case of the truly great ones, like Ali, sometimes there is more to be learned about them when they lose the edge from their core skills.
Sorry I did read through it, just didnt see where it related to the other points. As far as timing, any fighter could be timed. I dont think too many fighters timed Tyson consistently in his prime. Possibly only a few examples, Tucker for sure with that uppercut, but you didnt see Tyson getting hit cleanly too much coming forward, and that was because of what, contrary to what some think, his underated head and upper body movement when he was younger.
As far as losing their edge from their core skills, you mean getting hit more and taking more punishment? How much do they want to win as compared to collecting a check, and thats what you see in these guys who have respectable performances post prime. Tyson obviously lost his fighting gut, long before he retired.
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Old 10-20-2009, 02:33 PM   #20
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

like the foreman-frazier thing i again have to say no.. unless............ joe survives the first 5 rounds he wins. but he doesn't survive the first 5 rounds.
reasons : it took joe a few rounds to start smokin and a prime mike is a notorious fast starter. second i don't think joe ever fought someone like mike...
sure ali was faster. but mike has much more strenght, and is also very fast. KO power in both hands. worked not just the head but also the body of his opponents. plus good defense

we all know mentally seen mike is weak but a prime mike vs prime frazier does not go past the fifth. to bad cause personally i would hope for joe but one has to be realistic
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Old 10-20-2009, 04:49 PM   #21
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

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Originally Posted by junior-soprano View Post
like the foreman-frazier thing i again have to say no.. unless............ joe survives the first 5 rounds he wins. but he doesn't survive the first 5 rounds.
reasons : it took joe a few rounds to start smokin and a prime mike is a notorious fast starter. second i don't think joe ever fought someone like mike...
sure ali was faster. but mike has much more strenght, and is also very fast. KO power in both hands. worked not just the head but also the body of his opponents. plus good defense

we all know mentally seen mike is weak but a prime mike vs prime frazier does not go past the fifth. to bad cause personally i would hope for joe but one has to be realistic
Compared to Ali, anyone is a slow starter.

I will agree with you such that Frazier is a slow starter, but I doubt that Tyson would make it to round 9 against FOTC Joe Frazier. The pace that Frazier set against Ali was comparable to that of a middleweight fight.

Tyson has faster hands and his right hand power is significantly greater than Frazier's, but it's not like Frazier's right hand is absent which some on this forum have said. Tyson wouldn't be able to handle the pressure and body attack of 1967 - FOTC Joe Frazier, but I wouldn't bet against Tyson to KO the Jamaica version of Frazier, perhaps inside five rounds as opposed to the two round demolition by George Foreman.
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Old 10-20-2009, 05:26 PM   #22
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

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Apologies to MikeBrown for virtually plagarising his Foreman/Frazier thread This is another hypothetical fight where Joe would start as an underdog. We're talking the 1971 Joe Frazier v the 1988 Mike Tyson. Imo,although the odds would be stacked against Joe,it would n't be as cut and dried as it would against Foreman. I first present the case against Frazier beating Tyson. Joe was always a slow starter,and would soak up a lot of punches early on. This could spell disaster against an explosive starter like Tyson. It's quite feasible that Mike could unleash as much punishment on him as Foreman did,prompting the referee to save Frazier as early as the third or fourth round. Now the case for Joe beating Tyson. Tyson,although as explosive as Foreman,did n't have George's height and reach advantages over Frazier,so would have to come closer into Joe,thus putting him in range to take some punches in return. Supposing Tyson took enough punches from a hurt Frazier,to make him hesitate a little,letting Frazier come into the fight. It would then turn into a war of attrition. If that scenario occured,I could see Smokin'Joe stopping a discouraged Tyson in the latter stages of the fight.
I think Tyson wins this by stoppage inside 7 rds.

He had significantly faster hands ,better two handed power,took a better punch imo, and was bigger ,and stronger.

I dont see any area where Frazier has a substantial advantage,except maybe stamina,and heart ,but as he was a slow starter ,and Tyson came out like Dempsey , these plusses would not be a factor .

If Frazier could somehow survive into the late stages of the fight he has a shot ,but he wouldnt imo.
Frazier had more than his hands full with Bonavena who was a clubbing brawler,Joe couldnt drop him in two fights and Tyson is 3 times the fighter Oscar was.
Frazier wore you down with an accumulation of punches, he only faced one real big banger and got decapitated.
Tyson took the shots from bangers like Ruddock and Bruno,and even when past it, it took a lot of shots to finish him off.
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Old 10-20-2009, 07:21 PM   #23
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

I think Tyson would be the heavy favourite here. I feel he'd more than likely knock Frazier out in the first few rounds. If it happened to go beyond round four or five, Frazier's chances start to increase. However, I'd say Tyson would nail Frazier early and finish him as Mike was one of the best finishers of any era. I just think Frazier's swarming, come-forward style plays into the hands of a puncher of Tyson's calibre.

Tyson KO3.
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Old 10-21-2009, 02:55 AM   #24
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

When will you armchair pistoleros ever realize that NOBODY can go toe to toe with Tyson from the eighties, hell, even the nineties is almost suicide. Holyfield with a chin ten times of Frazier held and held, butted and held some more until he had a undertrained, unmotivated and rusty Tyson tired and finally got brave...........he did not go tit for tat from the beginning.

Tyson is all wrong for Frazier, Tiger tank against Sherman in a shootout at point blank range, lol, sorry, this is going to end a lot faster than the Foreman slaughters...............think Marvin.

A strong jab, size and tie up skills are the receipe for any form of success against Tyson. Frazier ain't got none of the above.
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Old 10-21-2009, 03:21 AM   #25
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

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Originally Posted by sauhund II View Post
Holyfield with a chin ten times of Frazier
Calm down.
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Old 10-21-2009, 03:39 AM   #26
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

I'd give Frazier a roughly 30-35% chance of winning.
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:58 AM   #27
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

Frazier is a very slow starter and Mike was a very fast starter so the question here is if Fraizier can wheather the early barrage from Tyson. I believe he could , then the next question is wheather Tyson can handle Joe Frazier once he starts "Smokin" this for me is the bigger question because Tyson never won a fight were he was faced with someone that could take his shots and stand up to him and comeback with his own shots like in the Douglas and Holyfield fights ( although he did show a lot of heart and courage in both fights ) the fact of the matter is that whenever he was faced with adversity he lost so that has to go a against him when he is talked about in match ups like these.

this for me is a 50 - 50 fight but I'm gonna go with the guy that is more proven to be able to comeback and WIN when faced with adversity so my pick is.

"Smokin" Joe Frazier by 12 Rd stoppage

(with Frazier having to get up of the canvas a number of times in an absolute brutal back and forth fight)
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Old 10-21-2009, 12:19 PM   #28
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

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Originally Posted by sugarsean View Post
Frazier is a very slow starter and Mike was a very fast starter so the question here is if Fraizier can wheather the early barrage from Tyson. I believe he could , then the next question is wheather Tyson can handle Joe Frazier once he starts "Smokin" this for me is the bigger question because Tyson never won a fight were he was faced with someone that could take his shots and stand up to him and comeback with his own shots like in the Douglas and Holyfield fights ( although he did show a lot of heart and courage in both fights ) the fact of the matter is that whenever he was faced with adversity he lost so that has to go a against him when he is talked about in match ups like these.

this for me is a 50 - 50 fight but I'm gonna go with the guy that is more proven to be able to comeback and WIN when faced with adversity so my pick is.

"Smokin" Joe Frazier by 12 Rd stoppage

(with Frazier having to get up of the canvas a number of times in an absolute brutal back and forth fight)
When do you think Frazier came back and won after looking like losing?
Ruddock nailed Tyson with big shots ,and he walked through them.
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Old 10-21-2009, 12:40 PM   #29
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
When do you think Frazier came back and won after looking like losing?
Ruddock nailed Tyson with big shots ,and he walked through them.

the only one that springs to mind for me is the first bonavena fight .i think frazier went down a few times in one of the early rounds .but i may be wrong
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Old 10-21-2009, 12:58 PM   #30
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Default Re: Could a prime Frazier defeat a prime Tyson ?

Oscar Bonavena ( down twice in the 2nd round ) Frazier got back up to win a 10 round decision.

Manuel Ramos stood 6' 3" and weighed 230 pounds and had a pulverizing right uppercut that Frazier walked through on his way to scoring a 2nd Round knockout.

Frazier stood up to the hardest punches Quarry ever landed and kept coming forward and wearing Quarry down. Joe repeated his performance more thoroughly five years later when they met a second time.

Ali hit Frazier with some of the swiftest combinations and hardest punches he ever hit any opponent with and did not knock him down. The only time Frazier was stopped by Ali was in the Manila fight. His eye was completely swollen shut and he was getting hit with punches he could not see.

Over the years many people have tryed to diminish Frazier's accomplishments because of the way he lost to Foreman. Foreman is not just another puncher. He came back and won the title at age 45 with a one-punch knockout.
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