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Old 11-22-2009, 12:16 PM   #1
Manassa
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Default Rating John Henry Lewis over Marvin Hagler

Once again, Hagler is used as my example. He's a good example - a great, dominant champion, known by fans both old and young. And a fighter who's typically rated too high, perhaps 'overrated' for his accomplishments (but not his excellent ability).

He's up against John Henry Lewis, light heavyweight great.

Who'd rate higher on an all-time pound-for-pound list?

Here are some raw stats to look at:

End-of-year RING rated contenders beaten:



John Henry Lewis

Yale Okun (x2)
Fred Lenhart (x2)
Lou Scozza
Norman Conrad
Young Firpo
Tony Shucco (x2)
Bob Olin (x3)
Tiger Jack Fox
Jock McAvoy
George Nichols (x2)
Charley Massera
Bob Godwin
Al Gainer (x2)
Red Burman
Al Ettore (x2)
Patsy Perroni
Johnny Risko
Elmer Ray
Jimmy Adamick

Jim Braddock
Maxie Rosenbloom (x2)
Len Harvey

--

Marvin Hagler

Sugar Ray Seales
Eugene Hart
Willie Monroe (x2)
Mike Colbert
Kevin Finnegan (x2)
Bobby Watts
Bennie Briscoe
Loucif Hamani
Marcos Geraldo
Alan Minter
Fulgencio Obelmejias (x2)
Vito Antuofermo
Mustafa Hamsho (x2)
Tony Sibson
Wilford Scypion
Juan Roldan
John Mugabi

Roberto Duran
Thomas Hearns

--

Typically you'll see Hagler rated between #20 and #35 on a fan's list. John Henry Lewis, if remembered, may scrape the top seventy. Injustice?
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:12 PM   #2
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Default Re: Rating John Henry Lewis over Marvin Hagler

This went down well
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:13 PM   #3
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Default Re: Rating John Henry Lewis over Marvin Hagler

These are all fighters ranked at the time they were beaten? Either way I wouldn't give much of an edge, if at all, to Lewis. Also, unless we're basing ATG rankings purely on who a fighter beat while discounting dominance, consistency, ability, losses, etc I don't think the case can be made for Lewis over Hagler.

Are your rankings going primarily by record?
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:15 PM   #4
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Default Re: Rating John Henry Lewis over Marvin Hagler

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea View Post
These are all fighters ranked at the time they were beaten?
Nope.

Hang on in there Manassa, RedRooster will be along shortly.
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:18 PM   #5
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Default Re: Rating John Henry Lewis over Marvin Hagler

I don't know if Lewis deserves to be rated over Hagler, but I do believe that he is a vastly underrated and probably forgotten fighter in many circles. One thing is for certain, whoever deserves to be rated over the other in this comparison, the margin can't be too wide.
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:27 PM   #6
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Default Re: Rating John Henry Lewis over Marvin Hagler

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea View Post
These are all fighters ranked at the time they were beaten?

Are your rankings going primarily by record?
#1, not necessarily. Although in the majority of cases you'll find that the fighter listed would have been near his prime, or in it, with exceptions going to Ray Seales and the like.

#2, no. There's much more to rating a fighter than just looking at his numbers. It's about who a fighter beat, how he beat them, how good they were when they beat him, and to whom and how he lost.
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:30 PM   #7
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Default Re: Rating John Henry Lewis over Marvin Hagler

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
I don't know if Lewis deserves to be rated over Hagler, but I do believe that he is a vastly underrated and probably forgotten fighter in many circles. One thing is for certain, whoever deserves to be rated over the other in this comparison, the margin can't be too wide.
I'd rate Hagler higher, but not by a lot. #34, say, with Lewis at #39.

He only came 17th in a recent light heavyweight poll, should have been higher.
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:37 PM   #8
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Default Re: Rating John Henry Lewis over Marvin Hagler

I just checked boxrec, and apparently Elmer Ray was a 3-4 nobody at the time Lewis beat him... Assuming of course, this info is correct.
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:50 PM   #9
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Default Re: Rating John Henry Lewis over Marvin Hagler

All Slapsie Maxie fights took place in the bay area and received excellent coverage from Harry B. Smith San Fran Chronicle. John Henry completely dominated and outclassed Rosenbllom save for the first fight when he was only 18.
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:54 PM   #10
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Default Re: Rating John Henry Lewis over Marvin Hagler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
I'd rate Hagler higher, but not by a lot. #34, say, with Lewis at #39.

He only came 17th in a recent light heavyweight poll, should have been higher.

That's reasonable. I agree that Lewis should probably be rated a little higher than #17 at LH. I thought it was unbelievable how he turned pro at age 16 and compiled 110 fights by age 25, especially considering the comp he fought and having the claim to being a world champ. Another thing that jumps out at me, is that most of his defeats came between ages 16-21, and mainly against good fighters.. He was also only stopped once in over 100 bouts, and against the greatest heavyweight puncher of all time.
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:56 PM   #11
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Default Re: Rating John Henry Lewis over Marvin Hagler

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Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
He only came 17th in a recent light heavyweight poll, should have been higher.

What is a good number, do you think? I don't think there's room in the ten...
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:00 PM   #12
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Default Re: Rating John Henry Lewis over Marvin Hagler

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
What is a good number, do you think? I don't think there's room in the ten...

I don't know if he belongs in the top 10 either, but there's a lot of slots between 10-17. I think somewhere between 12-15 is probably a reasonable range, but that's without getting into a lot of in-depth analysis of everyone else.
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:02 PM   #13
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Default Re: Rating John Henry Lewis over Marvin Hagler

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
I don't know if he belongs in the top 10 either, but there's a lot of slots between 10-17. I think somewhere between 12-15 is probably a reasonable range, but that's without getting into a lot of in-depth analysis of everyone else.
Let's say that he's #13 then...Hagler is a lock for the top 5 at MW? MW is every bit as deep as LHW...is Lewis's HW resume deep enough to overhaul this apparent difference in class? Obviously this isn't very scientific, but then nor is ranking fighters.
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:07 PM   #14
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Default Re: Rating John Henry Lewis over Marvin Hagler

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Let's say that he's #13 then...Hagler is a lock for the top 5 at MW? MW is every bit as deep as LHW...is Lewis's HW resume deep enough to overhaul this apparent difference in class? Obviously this isn't very scientific, but then nor is ranking fighters.
Yeah, to be honest I really don't know for sure how to rank Hagler or Lewis in their perspective weight classes. I'm not sure that ranking Lewis at 13, would transcend into rating Hagler at 5 in his own division. I think its a bit more complicated than that.

As a sidenote, I think that the LH division is probably one of the hardest in terms of rating fighters. You have literally dozens of great fighters who's resume's are actually very close in terms of quality acheivements and the lines that separate them, are either very thin, blurred or virtually non-existent.
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:30 PM   #15
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Default Re: Rating John Henry Lewis over Marvin Hagler

I've never done a pound-for-pound list.
And I cant make sense of most of the ones I see, anyway.

Hagler was one of the greatest of modern times, but I believe John Henry Lewis was great in what was generally a more competitive era.
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