Who has best chance of beating prime Larry Holmes - Page 2

rekcutnevets · 10-22-2009, 10:35 PM

I like Duodenum's mention of Max Baer. That is exactly the kind of person I was trying to think of.

Recently, there was a thread going around about picking the best opponent with a chance of defeating a peak Ali. There is only one Ali, so I tried to think of other fighters that win with exceptional athleticism. Then I tried to think of fighters that were successful against the exceptional athlete. I thought Forrest because of his success against Mosley. I also thought of Tarver because of his success against Jones.

Holmes is different of course, but falls more into a Forrest or Tarver type of fighter; rather than a Mosley or Jones type. Who had success against Forrest? Ricardo Mayorga. Who had success against Tarver? Glenn Johnson.

It is not surprising that Holmes struggled with Witherspoon now is it?

Tyson did well against Holmes in their meeting, obviously. I don't think that the Holmes he faced that night was a shot fighter. Holmes was definitely past it, but I think he made that a fight. Holmes put his hands on Tyson, and made me think Tyson may have been in a little trouble if the fight went past 5. I believe Holmes would have a hard time winning a 12 round fight with Tyson, because of the deficit Tyson would have him in after 6. I think Holmes would probably stop Tyson in a 15 round fight, and also win a decision if he couldn't.

I picked Holmes as my number one chance of defeating a prime Ali. I also think Ali stands more than just at chance victory as well. Ali had an amazing will to win, and was willing to fight. If Holmes started winning the tactical battle, I think Ali would turn the boxing match into a fight. Ali was capable of throwing a lot of punches. I'd expect a prime Ali to increase the punch output enough that Holmes could not compete, and win a decision.

A guy I wish we saw more of, was Ike Ibeabuchi. Ibeabuchi showed he had the punch output, and resistance, against David Tua. I don't think Byrd hits as hard as Holmes, and don't know how to take that performance in this sense. Ibeabuchi does not have enough of a career for me to pick him against Holmes. He has just enough of one to raise my eyebrow, and make me wish I could have seen it further.

bodhi · 10-23-2009, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turpinr

marciano would have no chance against holmes,ever.

Explain, please.

turpinr · 10-23-2009, 05:57 AM

he wouldn't have got past larry's jab for one
too small
would have bled
wouldn't have hit holmes hard enough
if he had got near enough holmes would have tied him up
holmes would have KO'd him
easily

junior-soprano · 10-23-2009, 04:30 PM

ali, frazier, liston, louis. that's all.
i don't see a prime holmes loosing to tyson, or foreman. sure he probably get knocked down but larry always got up. larry had very good ring-generalship so he outboxes a prime foreman/tyson imo

Quick Cash · 10-24-2009, 04:07 AM

Frazier might deceive in that he does not have a jab to disrupt Holmes'; the hook, also, is not a known weakness of Holmes', besides.

Larry intuits the same enough to take advantage, making Frazier miss in the early rounds, boxing beautifully as he does so. But Frazier is served best by a very unique ability to gradually turn the heat on. He will show skilled aggression and throw bad-intentioned punches to Holmes' mid-section followed by some more to the head. As Holmes attempts to match his tempo, I see him getting hit more and more frequently.

And while Frazier was indeed hit with his full share of uppercuts, I can't picture Joe quite static enough to be set-up with the right uppercut again and again that it would be a fight-changing thing. Holmes usually unfurled his only after sticking a stiff left to the face. I tend to credit Joe with more educated head movement than that. The right hand could spell trouble for him though and Larry had a fantastic one.

Quick Cash · 10-24-2009, 04:16 AM

Louis is principally on even terms with Holmes. When pushed, I've always sided with Larry, being the sound technician that he is. However, it would not surprise me at all if Louis boxed Holmes to a decision. Joe's boxing skills are criminally underrated, as far as I'm concerned. The man had a boxing computer for a brain.

Plus, we all know he could punch.

JohnThomas1 · 10-24-2009, 04:28 AM

I'd go for pre exile Ali above all others.

It gets awfully hazy after this. I think he'd win a razor thin decision vs Frazier, possibly outlast Foreman, possibly outpoint Liston, stop Tyson late or UD, outbox Holyfield, be a fraction big and talented for Marciano etc. His style would be tough for Louis and Lennox would have to box beautifully to beat him.

Possibly i'd go for Lennox out of the rest. It just goes to show there's not many i favour to beat Holmes.

PetethePrince · 10-24-2009, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turpinr

marciano would have no chance against holmes,ever.

Holmes disagrees.

bodhi · 10-24-2009, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turpinr

he wouldn't have got past larry's jab for one
too small

Can´t it be hat Marciano´s style, fighting out of a crouch, helps him slipping Holmes jab? Can´t is be that his size is an advantage against Holmes - in combination with making himself even smaller by fighting ou of a crouch? I think so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by turpinr

would have bled

Quite possible, didn´t stop him winning 49 out of 49.

Quote:

Originally Posted by turpinr

wouldn't have hit holmes hard enough

You are joking right? Marciano not hitting hard enough must be kidding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by turpinr

if he had got near enough holmes would have tied him up

It takes two to tango. Why do you think nobody else tied Marciano up?

Quote:

Originally Posted by turpinr

holmes would have KO'd him
easily

Yeah, because Holmes is a huge puncher and Marciano has a glass chin. You are underestimating the Brockton Blockbuster bigtime here.

groove · 10-24-2009, 06:42 AM

i would favour Frazier, Liston, Ali. 50/50 tyson, louis, lewis, foreman, tunney, marciano.

Mendoza · 10-24-2009, 06:57 AM

Holmes is tough to match up against, because out of all the great heavyweights he had the least amount of weakness.

The top boxers with size, chin, stamina and chin are hard to beat....because they are seldom out boxed, seldom Ko'd, and had plenty of gas left in the tank to go the distance.

Much is said about Holmes skills, but he seems to be short changed in his toughness.

I think Lennox Lewis has the best chance to beat Holmes because he is a top boxer with skills, size, and had a good right hand which is the punch Holmes was most susceptible to.

turpinr · 10-24-2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Holmes is tough to match up against, because out of all the great heavyweights he had the least amount of weakness.

The top boxers with size, chin, stamina and chin are hard to beat....because they are seldom out boxed, seldom Ko'd, and had plenty of gas left in the tank to go the distance.

Much is said about Holmes skills, but he seems to be short changed in his toughness.

I think Lennox Lewis has the best chance to beat Holmes because he is a top boxer with skills, size, and had a good right hand which is the punch Holmes was most susceptible to.

two chins

JohnThomas1 · 10-24-2009, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Much is said about Holmes skills, but he seems to be short changed in his toughness.

I heavily disagree. I'd guess 99% of the classic section know perfectly well that Holmes was one of the great competitors. Look at the nights he fought down a level, he always came thru via determination and sheer will to win.

Many in here named the hardest punch they ever saw as Shavers right hand on Holmes. Given he not only got up but won as well i think he's pretty well covered in here toughness wise.

Heart/determination/toughness, heck it's probably his greatest asset.

Mendoza · 10-24-2009, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turpinr

two chins

Yes two of them. Have you seen a picture of Holmes recently!

turpinr · 10-24-2009, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Yes two of them. Have you seen a picture of Holmes recently!

10-22-2009, 10:35 PM	#16
rekcutnevets Black Sash East Side Guru Join Date: May 2007 Location: InYourMouth, NC Posts: 6,541 vCash: 1000	Re: Who has best chance of beating prime Larry Holmes I like Duodenum's mention of Max Baer. That is exactly the kind of person I was trying to think of. Recently, there was a thread going around about picking the best opponent with a chance of defeating a peak Ali. There is only one Ali, so I tried to think of other fighters that win with exceptional athleticism. Then I tried to think of fighters that were successful against the exceptional athlete. I thought Forrest because of his success against Mosley. I also thought of Tarver because of his success against Jones. Holmes is different of course, but falls more into a Forrest or Tarver type of fighter; rather than a Mosley or Jones type. Who had success against Forrest? Ricardo Mayorga. Who had success against Tarver? Glenn Johnson. It is not surprising that Holmes struggled with Witherspoon now is it? Tyson did well against Holmes in their meeting, obviously. I don't think that the Holmes he faced that night was a shot fighter. Holmes was definitely past it, but I think he made that a fight. Holmes put his hands on Tyson, and made me think Tyson may have been in a little trouble if the fight went past 5. I believe Holmes would have a hard time winning a 12 round fight with Tyson, because of the deficit Tyson would have him in after 6. I think Holmes would probably stop Tyson in a 15 round fight, and also win a decision if he couldn't. I picked Holmes as my number one chance of defeating a prime Ali. I also think Ali stands more than just at chance victory as well. Ali had an amazing will to win, and was willing to fight. If Holmes started winning the tactical battle, I think Ali would turn the boxing match into a fight. Ali was capable of throwing a lot of punches. I'd expect a prime Ali to increase the punch output enough that Holmes could not compete, and win a decision. A guy I wish we saw more of, was Ike Ibeabuchi. Ibeabuchi showed he had the punch output, and resistance, against David Tua. I don't think Byrd hits as hard as Holmes, and don't know how to take that performance in this sense. Ibeabuchi does not have enough of a career for me to pick him against Holmes. He has just enough of one to raise my eyebrow, and make me wish I could have seen it further.
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10-23-2009, 05:57 AM	#18
turpinr Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: lancashire Posts: 8,637 vCash: 1000	Re: Who has best chance of beating prime Larry Holmes he wouldn't have got past larry's jab for one too small would have bled wouldn't have hit holmes hard enough if he had got near enough holmes would have tied him up holmes would have KO'd him easily
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10-23-2009, 04:30 PM	#19
junior-soprano Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: the netherlands Posts: 5,436 vCash: 1000	Re: Who has best chance of beating prime Larry Holmes ali, frazier, liston, louis. that's all. i don't see a prime holmes loosing to tyson, or foreman. sure he probably get knocked down but larry always got up. larry had very good ring-generalship so he outboxes a prime foreman/tyson imo
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10-24-2009, 04:07 AM	#20
Quick Cash Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 545 vCash: 1000	Re: Who has best chance of beating prime Larry Holmes Frazier might deceive in that he does not have a jab to disrupt Holmes'; the hook, also, is not a known weakness of Holmes', besides. Larry intuits the same enough to take advantage, making Frazier miss in the early rounds, boxing beautifully as he does so. But Frazier is served best by a very unique ability to gradually turn the heat on. He will show skilled aggression and throw bad-intentioned punches to Holmes' mid-section followed by some more to the head. As Holmes attempts to match his tempo, I see him getting hit more and more frequently. And while Frazier was indeed hit with his full share of uppercuts, I can't picture Joe quite static enough to be set-up with the right uppercut again and again that it would be a fight-changing thing. Holmes usually unfurled his only after sticking a stiff left to the face. I tend to credit Joe with more educated head movement than that. The right hand could spell trouble for him though and Larry had a fantastic one.
Top

10-24-2009, 04:16 AM	#21
Quick Cash Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 545 vCash: 1000	Re: Who has best chance of beating prime Larry Holmes Louis is principally on even terms with Holmes. When pushed, I've always sided with Larry, being the sound technician that he is. However, it would not surprise me at all if Louis boxed Holmes to a decision. Joe's boxing skills are criminally underrated, as far as I'm concerned. The man had a boxing computer for a brain. Plus, we all know he could punch.
Top

10-24-2009, 04:28 AM	#22
JohnThomas1 Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 12,184 vCash: 1000	Re: Who has best chance of beating prime Larry Holmes I'd go for pre exile Ali above all others. It gets awfully hazy after this. I think he'd win a razor thin decision vs Frazier, possibly outlast Foreman, possibly outpoint Liston, stop Tyson late or UD, outbox Holyfield, be a fraction big and talented for Marciano etc. His style would be tough for Louis and Lennox would have to box beautifully to beat him. Possibly i'd go for Lennox out of the rest. It just goes to show there's not many i favour to beat Holmes.
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10-24-2009, 06:42 AM	#25
groove Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,024 vCash: 1000	Re: Who has best chance of beating prime Larry Holmes i would favour Frazier, Liston, Ali. 50/50 tyson, louis, lewis, foreman, tunney, marciano.
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10-24-2009, 06:57 AM	#26
Mendoza Dominating a decade East Side VIP Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 14,738 vCash: 1000	Re: Who has best chance of beating prime Larry Holmes Holmes is tough to match up against, because out of all the great heavyweights he had the least amount of weakness. The top boxers with size, chin, stamina and chin are hard to beat....because they are seldom out boxed, seldom Ko'd, and had plenty of gas left in the tank to go the distance. Much is said about Holmes skills, but he seems to be short changed in his toughness. I think Lennox Lewis has the best chance to beat Holmes because he is a top boxer with skills, size, and had a good right hand which is the punch Holmes was most susceptible to.
Top