Do you think Calzaghe's legacy will improve or decline over time? - Page 4

Utter1 · 10-27-2009, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff thomas

Brian Nielson was 49-0 and had wins over Tim Witherspoon and Larry Holmes. His only losses were to Mike Tyson and Dicky Ryan in an upset.

No one gives a shit.

Exactly- We need punch throw the weak illusions of hype/promotions and see the truth for ourselves

You can take the red pill or the blue pill.

Utter1 · 10-27-2009, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff thomas

Fleaman. You are a hero. But who did Calzaghe show decent whiskers against?

I will say he had a good chin BUT becuase he was techincally flawed he got caught right down the middle the very moment he fought guys who were former elite all time greats.

In essence the fight with Hopkins and Jones showed his limitations

brown bomber · 10-27-2009, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popkins

Michael Carbajal. Humberto Gonzalez.

Easily the two biggest names of Lopez's era in the division above him, and he never fought either of them.

Argument over. Calzaghe's resume is better.

Saman Sorjaturong lasted two rounds with Lopez and beat Gonzalez. Carbajal and Gonzales weren't interested in fighting Lopez because they had generated the first million dollar purse by themselves and knew they would have been annihilated. A bit like Calzaghe not fighting a prime Roy Jones when he was claiming five and six figure purses defending against lower top 100 opposition.

Add to Sorjaturong good world champions like Rosendo Alvarez, Zolani Petelo, Will Grigsby, Alex Sanchez, Manny Melchor and Sor Vorapin. These were the best fighters in his division at the time he fought them.

Just because you know nothing about the division or the people in it doesn't make your argument more relevant then mine. Lopez beat everyone and at one time was ear marked to challenge Julio Cesar Chavez. He never lost in a boxing ring amateur or pro.

brown bomber · 10-27-2009, 10:38 AM

Nice points Utter. I thought Hatton won the Collazo fight TBH but can see the comparison your making which brings us back to the point that Calzaghe was matched and managed to perfection but not a great fighter.

trotter · 10-27-2009, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utter1

Unsure about a monster but a very good fighter...i believe most would say Hatton would have lost that fight.

Now what about Hatton fighting the likes of T. Bradley and D. Alexander when he is 34 or 35? Does anyone actually think that Hatton could beat this level of opponent at this age?

Or fight this level of oponenet in his 36th,37th or 38th bout and without doubt have a win on his record?

For me an objective comaparsion at this point-

Hatton - Witter (in theory)
k. tszyu WIN Lost
Muassa WIN WIN
Collazo win (LOST in truth) WIN
Urango WIN WIN
Castillo WIN WIN
Mayweather LOST LOST
Lazcano WIN WIN
Malingaggi WIN WIN
Pacaman LOST LOST

Does anyone seriously believe had Witter not fought these fighters at the same exact time that Hatton fought them and at the very point in his own carrer (witter) that hatton did.....that he would not have had similar results?

Im not a fan of either fighter or have a dislike as i respect both for having succesful carrers. Hatton had a more commerically succesful carrer along with more oportunities to showcase his abilty compared to Witter hence he was more succesful BUT Hatton is the same level as a witter.

The only fight that Hatton took that i believe Witter would not have done aswell in is the first title fight that Hatton had when he took on K. Tszyu...but then i believe that Witter would have outpointed Collazo a fight i believe Hatton lost to.

The only Witter fights you are using as evidence are all defeats.

The forum scored Hatton Collazo a month or two ago and Hatton won well, so never mind 'he lost in truth'

Show me the Witter wins that suggest he would have beaten Castillo, Paulie, Urango and particualrly Collazo at 147.

Flea Man · 10-27-2009, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff thomas

Saman Sorjaturong lasted two rounds with Lopez and beat Gonzalez. Carbajal and Gonzales weren't interested in fighting Lopez because they had generated the first million dollar purse by themselves and knew they would have been annihilated. A bit like Calzaghe not fighting a prime Roy Jones when he was claiming five and six figure purses defending against lower top 100 opposition.

Add to Sorjaturong good world champions like Rosendo Alvarez, Zolani Petelo, Will Grigsby, Alex Sanchez, Manny Melchor and Sor Vorapin. These were the best fighters in his division at the time he fought them.

Just because you know nothing about the division or the people in it doesn't make your argument more relevant then mine. Lopez beat everyone and at one time was ear marked to challenge Julio Cesar Chavez. He never lost in a boxing ring amateur or pro.

Good points to be fair. But Carbajal was a must for me (mainly as a fan)

chriswrench · 10-27-2009, 11:14 AM

Calzaghe was a world class boxer fo over a decade. he dominated a division which he unified and had at one time or another, held all the major belts and remained undefeated. he moved up to take the lineal title at LHW from a man who despite being old was still rated in boxings top 10 p4p list. Say what you will about Lacy, at the timeof the fight he was IBF champion and considered a monster. Bika is the oe to watch from his resume in my opinion. Woodhall was a very good fighter. Eubank went on to give Thompson fits at Cruiser after the Calzaghe fight. Mitchell was a very live fighter at the time. Kessler is a great fighter. Robin Reid was boncing back from losing his WBC title unfairly and again was an extremly good operator. People like to undermind Joe's record but look closely enoungh and you can find positives and negatives in any boxer's resume.

brown bomber · 10-27-2009, 11:34 AM

Calzaghe was a world class boxer fo over a decade. In an empty division

he dominated a division which he unified and had at one time or another, held all the major belts and remained undefeated. In an empty division

he moved up to take the lineal title at LHW from a man who despite being old was still rated in boxings top 10 p4p list. Who beat a terrible Tarver to claim the belt

Say what you will about Lacy, at the timeof the fight he was IBF champion and considered a monster. By the press, on closer inspection his record and performances weren't as good as made out by promoter Gary Shaw

Bika is the one to watch from his resume in my opinion. He's ok, wild and strong but will never be a legit world champion as long as I have a hole in my arse

Woodhall was a very good fighter but was renowned for struggling with southpaws and scraped through against Glenn Catley (nearly been knocked out), floored by Vincenzo Nardiello and floored three times and very nearly stopped by Marcus Beyer (a southpaw). His world title win over Malinga had come nearly 3 years earler and he had not put in an impressive performance since

Eubank went on to give Thompson fits at Cruiser after the Calzaghe fight. A fight which he had more then 6 days notice for and didn't have to starve himself to make the SM limit

Mitchell was a very live fighter at the time. Yes his losses to Bruno Girard and Sven Ottke were terrifying. His wins over the amazing Manny Siaca were also the stuff that legends were made of. The only victory of note on his record was the stoppage of Liles who had got old and had punched his head in for ten rounds.

Kessler is a great fighter. Based on???

Robin Reid was boncing back from losing his WBC title unfairly(??) and again was an extremly good operator. How did he lose his title unfairly? He was outjabbed and outworked by a tough veteran. He looked on the fringes of being stopped at times too. He had only fought once since that fight labouring to beat Graham Townsend and in his next fight was shut out by ATG Silvio Branco.

People like to undermind Joe's record but look closely enoungh and you can find positives and negatives in any boxer's resume Not in a true ATG.

Thank you

Love Jeff xxx

Utter1 · 10-27-2009, 11:47 AM

I made a parody of boxing business by pretending to be the dubious promoter of Amir Khan.

I don’t think anyone got the irony of it.......but il show you how to commercially create hype/success without really testing your fighter who has obvious flaws.

Below is who Khan will fight and why I’ve chosen this fighter for promotional reasons.

Dec 2009 Newcastle, UK
Khan vs Salita WBA Light-welter ( Unbeaten Jewish fighter who doesn’t punch hard as indicated by the fact that he holds a points win over R. Munoz recently who has been knocked out by J.C.Gomez in the 3rd and A. Gomez in the 1st. This fight is perfect as Salita is a big 140 pounder and is unbeaten) Side note- MANDATORY.

April 2010 Cardiff, UK
Khan vs. G. Rees WBA Light-welter (Brilliant a former champion who is only 5'4 which means Amir can peck away until KO or points victory and has just one loss on his record. This fight is viable especially in Cardiff Wales.)

July 2010 Las Vegas, USA
Khan vs. E. Morales WBA Light-Welter (A fight against an all time great and big name over in the states all the Hispanics/ English fans will buy this up. Catch well Morales will be 33 fighting 10 pounds above his natural domain, and 4 years past his best)

Sept 2010 Manchester, UK
Khan vs. J. Murray WBA Light-Welter (Another great promotional angle...unbeaten Manchurian fighter who fights a division below...the Manchester fights fans will come out in there droves. A perfectly winnable fight for Mr Khan.)

Jan 2011 Los Angeles, USA
Khan vs. J. Diaz WBA Light-welter ( This is a little bit risky but well worth a go, we have to fulfil our second mandatory and the J. Diaz isn’t that much of a risk...due to Khan popularity and growing ring experience it should be enough for a points victory) MANDATORY.

April 2011 Las Vegas, USA
Khan vs. J. Casamayor WBA Light-welter (A man known for being a good champion in the lower weights and another big name that we can convince the fans that Amir is one of the best in the world, it doesn’t matter that Joel is nearly 40...this guy is a 2 weight champion HOF)

Sept 2011 Manchester, UK
Khan vs. R. Hatton WBA Light-welter (I convince Hatton to have a couple of comeback fights ala the same i did with Morales and convince him this a huge 100,000 all seated fight where both men can earn at least 20 mill each...it doesn’t matter that Hatton is 4 years past his best i mean he has only lost to the two best pound for pounders....which mean my man Amir becomes that with his very plausible victory.)

Mar 2012 London, UK
Khan vs. K. Mitchell WBA Light-welter (Local favourite and only beaten once (hypothetically by this point) sensations K. Mitchell to fight Khan in all British pound for pound title fight.)

Due to bleeding dry every winnable fight for Amir Khan and looking at that fact that there a couple of risky fights with guys that are up and coming but have no name I now decide to let Khan fight for the Vacant WBC strap at Welterweight against S. Mosley.

July 2012 Las Vegas, USA
Khan vs. S. Mosley Vacant WBC Welter (Can my man Khan become a 2 weight champion against All time great S. Mosley a former 3 weight champion. Yet again a marketable fight as Mosley makes a sensational comeback. The catch Mosley is 41 and hasn’t fought in 2 years but so what...Foreman made a comeback didnt he)

Nov 2012 London, UK
Khan vs. F. Gavin WBC Welter (Olympic silver medal champion versus world amateur and unbeaten British fighting sensation champion Frankie Gavin . Big fight and hopefully we catch an up coming Gavin just before he reaches his peak...another great win on paper.)

Khan is the king of the world now....but constant criticism of opponent selection is starting to filter to the mass media and fans who have been swallowing up my hype so now i pull out a master stroke. Convince Oscar De La Hoya to come out of retirement for one huge fight against the pound for pound king Khan.

July 2013 Las Vegas, USA
Khan vs. O. De La Hoya Vacant WBC Light-middleweight crown ( Big promotion and TV coverage. Who cares if Oscar is 40 years old....this guy is an ALL time great, HOF, 6 weight champion and one of the biggest PPV names ever....yet again my man Khan wins this and we are nearly home and dry.)

Nov 2013 Bolton, UK
Khan vs. P. Prescott II WBC light-middleweight ( We find Prescott fighting in some smalls shows in Colombia and convince him to get back into shape to fight Khan as we need Khan to avenge his sole defeat. Who cares if Prescott is 30 yrs old, and has 8 losses on his record now...who cares if has trained in a year....promotion would be perfect and we can catch Prescott at the right time.....he is shop-worn and far past the fighter that knock Amir our in his only fluke win of any note.

YES I did it.......Amir Khan retires as one of the all time greats with a record of 34 fights/ 33 wins and just 1 lost that he avenged. 3 weight champion.

Who cares for the criticism about fighting HOF past there best or not fighting his friend Pacman. All the other fighters didn’t want to fight my Man Khan as they were afraid....how do you argue with someone who has a resume like this-
Barrera
Kotlenik
Salita
Morales,
Rees
Hatton
Mosley
Casamyour
J. Diaz
De La Hoya
and aveneges his only loss!

LiamE · 10-27-2009, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fleaman

Fair point. I'd never argue against any light-heavy puncher stopping him in the first as it's been shown he could be caught early there.......but in the sense that he was rarely hurt throughout his career and showed good recovery to get up from Jones (admittedly a scuffing punch) I'd say he was able-chinned (if that makes sense)

No Andrade-esque chin but he didn't need it.

The jones one wasnt a scuffing punch. The guy got clotheslined by an unpadded forearm. That would shake anyone up early on.

TFFP · 10-27-2009, 01:00 PM

Its laughable people talk about the Jones knockdown as if it reflects badly on Calzaghe. It wasn't a punch, none of Jones's punches affected Calzaghe including the huge uppercut he landed. Not one. Yet the forearm did..what a surprise.

PrideOfWales · 10-27-2009, 01:12 PM

lol... Calzaghe's boxing career is going to get talked about an awful lot regardless.

People are very passionate one way or the other.

Utter1 · 10-27-2009, 01:14 PM

Come on no one has mentioned my lovely parody of how certain fighters get brought along....

If Khan was to follow that line of fights, the mass media and casual fan would be lapping him up in the New York Times, the Sun, D. Letterman show and Jonathan Ross show.

Ross- You beat De La Hoya and Hatton, you beat Barrera and Morales....that is some great stuff.

Yet it would be us hardcore who would have to constantly point out the obvious flaws in this hypothetical scenario.

Much the same with Calzaghe and Hatton.

In fact comeon guys some of you would be in fact impressed if Khan took that route and fought all those guys and beat them>

Utter1 · 10-27-2009, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrideOfWales

lol... Calzaghe's boxing career is going to get talked about an awful lot regardless.

People are very passionate one way or the other.

No its us the hardcore that talk about it, becuase as I have explained in my earlier posts.....his record is like a mirage of smoke and mirrors of how to succesful create a commercially padded commodity.

Now the guy is on Strickly come Dancing making an arse of himself.

TFFP · 10-27-2009, 01:17 PM

He can't be that commerical if its only us talking about it.

10-27-2009, 10:38 AM	#49
brown bomber 2010 Poster of the Year East Side VIP Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 20,405 vCash: 1000	Re: Do you think Calzaghe's legacy will improve or decline over time? Nice points Utter. I thought Hatton won the Collazo fight TBH but can see the comparison your making which brings us back to the point that Calzaghe was matched and managed to perfection but not a great fighter.
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10-27-2009, 11:14 AM	#52
chriswrench Pugilist Specialist ESB Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Widnes, U.K Posts: 683 vCash: 746	Re: Do you think Calzaghe's legacy will improve or decline over time? Calzaghe was a world class boxer fo over a decade. he dominated a division which he unified and had at one time or another, held all the major belts and remained undefeated. he moved up to take the lineal title at LHW from a man who despite being old was still rated in boxings top 10 p4p list. Say what you will about Lacy, at the timeof the fight he was IBF champion and considered a monster. Bika is the oe to watch from his resume in my opinion. Woodhall was a very good fighter. Eubank went on to give Thompson fits at Cruiser after the Calzaghe fight. Mitchell was a very live fighter at the time. Kessler is a great fighter. Robin Reid was boncing back from losing his WBC title unfairly and again was an extremly good operator. People like to undermind Joe's record but look closely enoungh and you can find positives and negatives in any boxer's resume.
Top

10-27-2009, 11:34 AM	#53
brown bomber 2010 Poster of the Year East Side VIP Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 20,405 vCash: 1000	Re: Do you think Calzaghe's legacy will improve or decline over time? Calzaghe was a world class boxer fo over a decade. In an empty division he dominated a division which he unified and had at one time or another, held all the major belts and remained undefeated. In an empty division he moved up to take the lineal title at LHW from a man who despite being old was still rated in boxings top 10 p4p list. Who beat a terrible Tarver to claim the belt Say what you will about Lacy, at the timeof the fight he was IBF champion and considered a monster. By the press, on closer inspection his record and performances weren't as good as made out by promoter Gary Shaw Bika is the one to watch from his resume in my opinion. He's ok, wild and strong but will never be a legit world champion as long as I have a hole in my arse Woodhall was a very good fighter but was renowned for struggling with southpaws and scraped through against Glenn Catley (nearly been knocked out), floored by Vincenzo Nardiello and floored three times and very nearly stopped by Marcus Beyer (a southpaw). His world title win over Malinga had come nearly 3 years earler and he had not put in an impressive performance since Eubank went on to give Thompson fits at Cruiser after the Calzaghe fight. A fight which he had more then 6 days notice for and didn't have to starve himself to make the SM limit Mitchell was a very live fighter at the time. Yes his losses to Bruno Girard and Sven Ottke were terrifying. His wins over the amazing Manny Siaca were also the stuff that legends were made of. The only victory of note on his record was the stoppage of Liles who had got old and had punched his head in for ten rounds. Kessler is a great fighter. Based on??? Robin Reid was boncing back from losing his WBC title unfairly(??) and again was an extremly good operator. How did he lose his title unfairly? He was outjabbed and outworked by a tough veteran. He looked on the fringes of being stopped at times too. He had only fought once since that fight labouring to beat Graham Townsend and in his next fight was shut out by ATG Silvio Branco. People like to undermind Joe's record but look closely enoungh and you can find positives and negatives in any boxer's resume Not in a true ATG. Thank you Love Jeff xxx
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10-27-2009, 11:47 AM	#54
Utter1 Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 712 vCash: 1000	Re: Do you think Calzaghe's legacy will improve or decline over time? I made a parody of boxing business by pretending to be the dubious promoter of Amir Khan. I don’t think anyone got the irony of it.......but il show you how to commercially create hype/success without really testing your fighter who has obvious flaws. Below is who Khan will fight and why I’ve chosen this fighter for promotional reasons. Dec 2009 Newcastle, UK Khan vs Salita WBA Light-welter ( Unbeaten Jewish fighter who doesn’t punch hard as indicated by the fact that he holds a points win over R. Munoz recently who has been knocked out by J.C.Gomez in the 3rd and A. Gomez in the 1st. This fight is perfect as Salita is a big 140 pounder and is unbeaten) Side note- MANDATORY. April 2010 Cardiff, UK Khan vs. G. Rees WBA Light-welter (Brilliant a former champion who is only 5'4 which means Amir can peck away until KO or points victory and has just one loss on his record. This fight is viable especially in Cardiff Wales.) July 2010 Las Vegas, USA Khan vs. E. Morales WBA Light-Welter (A fight against an all time great and big name over in the states all the Hispanics/ English fans will buy this up. Catch well Morales will be 33 fighting 10 pounds above his natural domain, and 4 years past his best) Sept 2010 Manchester, UK Khan vs. J. Murray WBA Light-Welter (Another great promotional angle...unbeaten Manchurian fighter who fights a division below...the Manchester fights fans will come out in there droves. A perfectly winnable fight for Mr Khan.) Jan 2011 Los Angeles, USA Khan vs. J. Diaz WBA Light-welter ( This is a little bit risky but well worth a go, we have to fulfil our second mandatory and the J. Diaz isn’t that much of a risk...due to Khan popularity and growing ring experience it should be enough for a points victory) MANDATORY. April 2011 Las Vegas, USA Khan vs. J. Casamayor WBA Light-welter (A man known for being a good champion in the lower weights and another big name that we can convince the fans that Amir is one of the best in the world, it doesn’t matter that Joel is nearly 40...this guy is a 2 weight champion HOF) Sept 2011 Manchester, UK Khan vs. R. Hatton WBA Light-welter (I convince Hatton to have a couple of comeback fights ala the same i did with Morales and convince him this a huge 100,000 all seated fight where both men can earn at least 20 mill each...it doesn’t matter that Hatton is 4 years past his best i mean he has only lost to the two best pound for pounders....which mean my man Amir becomes that with his very plausible victory.) Mar 2012 London, UK Khan vs. K. Mitchell WBA Light-welter (Local favourite and only beaten once (hypothetically by this point) sensations K. Mitchell to fight Khan in all British pound for pound title fight.) Due to bleeding dry every winnable fight for Amir Khan and looking at that fact that there a couple of risky fights with guys that are up and coming but have no name I now decide to let Khan fight for the Vacant WBC strap at Welterweight against S. Mosley. July 2012 Las Vegas, USA Khan vs. S. Mosley Vacant WBC Welter (Can my man Khan become a 2 weight champion against All time great S. Mosley a former 3 weight champion. Yet again a marketable fight as Mosley makes a sensational comeback. The catch Mosley is 41 and hasn’t fought in 2 years but so what...Foreman made a comeback didnt he) Nov 2012 London, UK Khan vs. F. Gavin WBC Welter (Olympic silver medal champion versus world amateur and unbeaten British fighting sensation champion Frankie Gavin . Big fight and hopefully we catch an up coming Gavin just before he reaches his peak...another great win on paper.) Khan is the king of the world now....but constant criticism of opponent selection is starting to filter to the mass media and fans who have been swallowing up my hype so now i pull out a master stroke. Convince Oscar De La Hoya to come out of retirement for one huge fight against the pound for pound king Khan. July 2013 Las Vegas, USA Khan vs. O. De La Hoya Vacant WBC Light-middleweight crown ( Big promotion and TV coverage. Who cares if Oscar is 40 years old....this guy is an ALL time great, HOF, 6 weight champion and one of the biggest PPV names ever....yet again my man Khan wins this and we are nearly home and dry.) Nov 2013 Bolton, UK Khan vs. P. Prescott II WBC light-middleweight ( We find Prescott fighting in some smalls shows in Colombia and convince him to get back into shape to fight Khan as we need Khan to avenge his sole defeat. Who cares if Prescott is 30 yrs old, and has 8 losses on his record now...who cares if has trained in a year....promotion would be perfect and we can catch Prescott at the right time.....he is shop-worn and far past the fighter that knock Amir our in his only fluke win of any note. YES I did it.......Amir Khan retires as one of the all time greats with a record of 34 fights/ 33 wins and just 1 lost that he avenged. 3 weight champion. Who cares for the criticism about fighting HOF past there best or not fighting his friend Pacman. All the other fighters didn’t want to fight my Man Khan as they were afraid....how do you argue with someone who has a resume like this- Barrera Kotlenik Salita Morales, Rees Hatton Mosley Casamyour J. Diaz De La Hoya and aveneges his only loss!
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10-27-2009, 01:00 PM	#56
TFFP The Eskimo East Side VIP Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Reykjavík Posts: 30,407 vCash: 2500	Re: Do you think Calzaghe's legacy will improve or decline over time? Its laughable people talk about the Jones knockdown as if it reflects badly on Calzaghe. It wasn't a punch, none of Jones's punches affected Calzaghe including the huge uppercut he landed. Not one. Yet the forearm did..what a surprise.
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10-27-2009, 01:12 PM	#57
PrideOfWales Winston Zedmore East Side Guru Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Newport Essex innit Posts: 7,612 vCash: 75	Re: Do you think Calzaghe's legacy will improve or decline over time? lol... Calzaghe's boxing career is going to get talked about an awful lot regardless. People are very passionate one way or the other.
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10-27-2009, 01:14 PM	#58
Utter1 Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 712 vCash: 1000	Re: Do you think Calzaghe's legacy will improve or decline over time? Come on no one has mentioned my lovely parody of how certain fighters get brought along.... If Khan was to follow that line of fights, the mass media and casual fan would be lapping him up in the New York Times, the Sun, D. Letterman show and Jonathan Ross show. Ross- You beat De La Hoya and Hatton, you beat Barrera and Morales....that is some great stuff. Yet it would be us hardcore who would have to constantly point out the obvious flaws in this hypothetical scenario. Much the same with Calzaghe and Hatton. In fact comeon guys some of you would be in fact impressed if Khan took that route and fought all those guys and beat them>
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10-27-2009, 01:17 PM	#60
TFFP The Eskimo East Side VIP Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Reykjavík Posts: 30,407 vCash: 2500	Re: Do you think Calzaghe's legacy will improve or decline over time? He can't be that commerical if its only us talking about it.
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