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Old 10-28-2009, 01:29 AM   #1
CF Gauss
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Default What Makes a Bad Chin? (Knocked Down vs. Knocked Out)

Much has been said in these forums about certain fighters having bad, or weak, or mediocre chins. However, I want to clarify one thing:

What makes a chin bad?

1. Is it a tendency to get knocked down (but not necessarily knocked out)?

or

2. Is it getting knocked out frequently?



Perhaps some examples will illustrate what I mean.

Joe Louis got knocked down a little more than one might expect of such a venerated fighter. However, he almost always got back up and claimed victory. In fact, he was only knocked out twice. Both came after sustained beat-downs (as opposed to one or a few punches), and one of the knockouts occurred when he was shot.

Did Joe Louis have a subpar chin?


Here's another example. Joe Frazier got knocked down six times by George Foreman. But he got up quick enough to beat the count every single time. Foreman claimed a TKO.

Many people have cited Frazier-Foreman I has evidence of Frazier having a mediocre chin. But I wonder how many other fighters described as having questionable chins could get up six times.



Here is what I think. When I think of someone described as having a poor chin, I think of someone who is in constant danger of getting knocked out by one or a few punches.

If someone is almost always getting off the canvas and winning fights like Louis, it is misleading to say he had a poor chin since getting knocked down usually did not affect his ability to get the win.

Getting knocked down is, of course, not a good thing. But if you have good recuperative abilities, it is not as big a vulnerability as it may seem.


Your Thoughts?
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Old 10-28-2009, 02:26 AM   #2
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Default Re: What Makes a Bad Chin? (Knocked Down vs. Knocked Out)

It is all a matter of degree. Obviously, someone who is never knocked down nor knocked out has the strongest chin. On the other side of the spectrum you have a guy who can be knocked down and out from the first punch he takes.

Again, you might have a fighter who is knocked down sometimes but always gets up and fights on unaffected by the kd. Prime example would be Ali. Larry Holmes would be another example, though I think he was prone to be knocked down more often and also seemed to be a bit more affected by a kd than Ali. Joe Louis would be a bit more down the line. Frazier, as you have pointed out, always got up from a kd - a tribute to his great heart and resolve. But it seemed that he was groggy when he got up. Examples: Foreman, Bonavena (who knocked him down again when he got up) and Ali (2nd round of the 2nd fight - referees unwarranted intervention definitely benefitted Joe).

Some fighters never seems to go down from the hardest of punches. But you can see that they are affected. An excellent example would be George Chuvalo. He never went down even against the hardest of hitters (let us keep the Bonavena fight out of the picture for the moment - to keep matters simple) - list includes George Foreman. But he had to be saved from fighters like Foreman and Frazier - in the 3rd and 4th rounds respectively.
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Old 10-28-2009, 12:05 PM   #3
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Default Re: What Makes a Bad Chin? (Knocked Down vs. Knocked Out)

People seem to lump chin in one category and then recovery powers. But really they're both intertwined.

There seems to be an ability to take one power shot versus a lot of shots. Maybe taking a lot of shots takes a lot of mental strength, but it's noted as having a good chin (See Ali vs Frazier III). However the ability to take a good power shot is seen as important to (Reference Bonavena vs Frazier). In the end, it's all a bit fuzzy, gray, and mysterious. I think being able to get knocked down and get up is a good sign of a chin. Getting hurt and being able to get up is big, but being knocked out or banged out cold is another thing. It not only says your dentable, but essentially knockoutable.

Louis had a good chin (Not terrific/great).

They also say the punch you don't see hurts the most. In that case Moore sting Marciano with an uppercut while Marciano was completely off balance. It's said he told Duva it was the hardest right hand he ever got hit with. He got up at around 2-4 though. He definitely was a little shaken up by that shot. The ability to take a shot flush without being helpless is really a good sign of a chin. Also the ability to take punishment. It's really hard to factor. It gets confusing when mental strength, heart, and recovery powers get lumped into separate categories. As if we can really accurately divide and define all those stuff. It's all related but difficult to determine.

It seems everyone either has an iron chin or a weak chin. There's no in between or normalcy for regarding chins. A lot gets overstated.
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Old 10-28-2009, 12:34 PM   #4
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Default Re: What Makes a Bad Chin? (Knocked Down vs. Knocked Out)

None of the distinctions really matter if the fighter in question can survive and beat big punchers who whack them on the chin during the fight, in spite of the alleged "handicap".

Whether they go down, or wobbly around on rubber legs, or walk right through, if they can come survive and win against big punchers that's what counts.

On top of that, sometimes "iron-chinned" fighters can wobble or go down against fighters without reputations as punchers. And supposedly "glass-chinned" fighters can walk through a monstrous punch from a bona fide hitter. These things aren't constant, and need not be used as concrete proof or anything.

Joe Louis fought a load of hard hitters and was stopped just twice in his entire career. That's the reality.
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Old 10-28-2009, 12:36 PM   #5
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Default Re: What Makes a Bad Chin? (Knocked Down vs. Knocked Out)

Its the way you comeback from a Knock Down, it you get up and recover quick, you have a solid chin, A lot of good fighters have never got off the floor to win and that says something about recovery. Anyone and everyone has been down but not all have been able to get up and win.
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Old 10-30-2009, 04:29 PM   #6
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Default Re: What Makes a Bad Chin? (Knocked Down vs. Knocked Out)

You have no chin if you considently get KO'd. Knocked down? Different scenerio...My beloved Patterson? My god, he got knocked down tons of times, many of them off-balance shots which saw Floyd rising with an embarrassed look on his face.
Bad chin = being knocked down and OUT! that's it...
my $0.02
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Old 10-30-2009, 04:38 PM   #7
CF Gauss
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Default Re: What Makes a Bad Chin? (Knocked Down vs. Knocked Out)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
None of the distinctions really matter if the fighter in question can survive and beat big punchers who whack them on the chin during the fight, in spite of the alleged "handicap".

Whether they go down, or wobbly around on rubber legs, or walk right through, if they can come survive and win against big punchers that's what counts.

On top of that, sometimes "iron-chinned" fighters can wobble or go down against fighters without reputations as punchers. And supposedly "glass-chinned" fighters can walk through a monstrous punch from a bona fide hitter. These things aren't constant, and need not be used as concrete proof or anything.

Joe Louis fought a load of hard hitters and was stopped just twice in his entire career. That's the reality.

You make some great points. I agree with this.
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Old 10-30-2009, 05:01 PM   #8
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: What Makes a Bad Chin? (Knocked Down vs. Knocked Out)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
None of the distinctions really matter if the fighter in question can survive and beat big punchers who whack them on the chin during the fight, in spite of the alleged "handicap".

Whether they go down, or wobbly around on rubber legs, or walk right through, if they can come survive and win against big punchers that's what counts.

On top of that, sometimes "iron-chinned" fighters can wobble or go down against fighters without reputations as punchers. And supposedly "glass-chinned" fighters can walk through a monstrous punch from a bona fide hitter. These things aren't constant, and need not be used as concrete proof or anything.

Joe Louis fought a load of hard hitters and was stopped just twice in his entire career. That's the reality.
All good points.
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Old 11-05-2009, 09:43 PM   #9
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Default Re: What Makes a Bad Chin? (Knocked Down vs. Knocked Out)

also a guy like Frazier who gets hit a lot needs to have a better chin than a Holmes who does not get hit as often cause of Larry's defensive skills and jab as opposed to Joe straight ahead style
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Old 11-05-2009, 10:04 PM   #10
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Default Re: What Makes a Bad Chin? (Knocked Down vs. Knocked Out)

It depends really. I know there are different types of power, and those different types of power affect people in different ways. I personally am not very effected by the hard thudding blows as much as the hard, sharp, crisp shots. It is the other way around for other fighters.

When I think of chin, I think of how frequently they were knocked down, and how quickly they recovered. I think of heart more by the amount of times they were not stopped.

For example, I think a guy like Floyd Patterson had a bad chin, but loads of heart. He was knocked down multiple times against Ingo, but kept getting up. But a guy who would get dropped, and remain badly hurt for another round or two has a bad chin. Being knocked unconcious does not count against chin or heart for me, it can happen to anyone if hit properly.
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Old 11-05-2009, 10:08 PM   #11
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Default Re: What Makes a Bad Chin? (Knocked Down vs. Knocked Out)

The actual physical aspect of getting knocked down isn't always the right way to judge a "chin". Often it can be a result of a slip, bad angle, or just the right amount of force at the right time.

Your true strength of chin is how it affects you mentally and your ability to control your body after taking a good shot. There is a distinct difference between getting knocked down and being knocked out (sparked). If you have the tendency to get wobbled easily and/or sparked, you have a suspect chin. But if you can get up from a knockdown and continue to fight successfully, I would say that shows strength of chin.
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Old 11-05-2009, 10:27 PM   #12
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Default Re: What Makes a Bad Chin? (Knocked Down vs. Knocked Out)

Louis had a weak chin for gettin knocked down too easily. Louis had the heart to get up again.
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