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Old 11-06-2009, 05:24 PM   #91
sugarsean
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Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

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When they are valid points with objective ,,and astute analysis to reinforce them I accept them readily ,whether they concide with my own opinion sor not.
Your statements do not tick either of those boxes I am afraid
well you must not know boxing form then, I clearly explained my reasons
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Old 11-06-2009, 05:28 PM   #92
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Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

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all I said was based on what I've seen of him I don't rate him high Hd 2 Hd, he over reaches, sticks his chin up in the air and his footwork is all over the place whats wrong with saying that when its true. I never insulted the man or said that he was useless just that I don't think he's that great.

you need to chillout and be able to be more acepting of other people's opinion's especially when the points they make are valid points.
Your points weren't valid at all, as proved when I challenged you to back up your assertion regarding his footwork and balance. If there was one thing you can't criticize him on, it is those two areas. His offensive techniques were much different, which is to be expected, understood, and excepted when dealing with fighters in past eras with different rules and regulations. That doesn't change the fact that for his time he was an exceptional technician within those boundaries.

How can you tell me you rate Jack Johnson when all of the criticisms you wrote on Leonard apply even moreso for him? If you're going to criticize, at least show some consistency. It sounds to me like you're just talking shit.
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Old 11-06-2009, 05:33 PM   #93
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Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

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Your points weren't valid at all, as proved when I challenged you to back up your assertion regarding his footwork and balance. If there was one thing you can't criticize him on, it is those two areas. His offensive techniques were much different, which is to be expected, understood, and excepted when dealing with fighters in past eras with different rules and regulations. That doesn't change the fact that for his time he was an exceptional technician within those boundaries.

How can you tell me you rate Jack Johnson when all of the criticisms you wrote on Leonard apply even moreso for him? If you're going to criticize, at least show some consistency. It sounds to me like you're just talking shit.
when did you challenge me to back up my assertion
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Old 11-06-2009, 05:33 PM   #94
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Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

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well you must not know boxing form then, I clearly explained my reasons
You explained your reasons ,I just cannot find them either aceptable ,or credible,so finis.
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Old 11-06-2009, 05:37 PM   #95
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Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

Folks,

I feel a whole lotta' love on this here thread.............

MR.BILL

Note:

For the record, I am bored tonight and I have therefore popped in my classic "Duran-Moore" massacre from 1983....... 'Tis my all-time favorite fight....... I was SO STOKED when Duran mauled Moorer to death for the WBA 154 lb. title at MSG............. BUT!! Yes, Ernesto Magana was a terrible referee........ Cheerio........

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Old 11-06-2009, 05:39 PM   #96
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Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

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when did you challenge me to back up my assertion
Post #45
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Old 11-06-2009, 05:43 PM   #97
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Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

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Point out to me in the footage available of him where he is off balance or where his footwork is all over the place and not perfectly positioned. I'll wait.
I did'nt see this post until now, To answer your question if you look up some his of his fights you will see that many times his feet lift of the ground by a few inches and that his footing is not spread out evenly balanced. his chin is also up in the air, and he over reaches with his punches
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Old 11-06-2009, 05:54 PM   #98
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Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

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I did'nt see this post until now, To answer your question if you look up some his of his fights you will see that many times his feet lift of the ground by a few inches and that his footing is not spread out evenly balanced. his chin is also up in the air, and he over reaches with his punches
Which of his fights? To my knowledge there is only footage of one of his bouts with Lew Tendler available online, and only otherwise of the last fight of his career against Jimmy McLarnin.

I've just re-watched the footage against Tendler recently in response to your post to see if it held any merit, and obviously I came to the conclusion that it didn't. Sometimes his back foot would slightly lift off the ground on a jab, but you can say the same about many fighters. Even the most textbook boxer punchers like Ricardo Lopez did this at times. The spacing between his feet is about as good as it gets, which made his balance and ring generalship pretty much emmaculate. Maybe you should re-watch it yourself instead of coming to inane conclusions to try and verify your stance.

His stance was a product of the times, as you'll see with pretty much any fighter from that era. They held their reaches out rather than placing them by their faces in order to better catch and parry incoming punches and clinch if necessary. The smaller gloves were the primary reason. Today's gloves allow maximum coverage when a fighter "puts on the earmuffs", the gloves of those times did not. That's one of the reasons why the techniques of the era differed.
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Old 11-06-2009, 05:55 PM   #99
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Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

And again, how do you rate Johnson while refusing to rate Leonard? A bit contradictory I'd say.
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Old 11-06-2009, 06:04 PM   #100
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Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

Johnson was unorthodox but he had great balance and could get great leverage in his punches and kept his chin tuck in so I don't see how that is cotracdictory
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Old 11-06-2009, 06:07 PM   #101
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Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

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Johnson was unorthodox but he had great balance and could get great leverage in his punches and kept his chin tuck in so I don't see how that is cotractctory
Leonard had great balance and could obviously get leverage into his punches, as his 70 KO's attest to.

Here's footage of Johnson. His chin looks even more open than Leonard's did to me:

BORKED
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Old 11-06-2009, 06:08 PM   #102
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Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

Christ, we are fading into oblivion here........ Let's get back to a fresh start...........

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Old 11-06-2009, 06:09 PM   #103
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Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

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And again, how do you rate Johnson while refusing to rate Leonard? A bit contradictory I'd say.

Somebody correct me here.......... How the hell did Jack Johnson get involved with this "Lightweight" debate????


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Old 11-06-2009, 09:34 PM   #104
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Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

For the record, I have "Duran-Lampkin" on tape......... Lamps may NOT have been the greatest 135 lb. contender of all-time, but he was a hell of a lot better than some typical pretender like future guys 'Kenny Bogner' or 'Robin Blake' for cryin' out loud....... Or lousy ex-WBA champ Art Frias............. Crimities galore there............

NOW! To my knowledge, Bogner and Blake never got their title shots cuz they lost in the process to leading up to them chances, however, them guys were hyped as being special in the 80s.............. I knew better though............ Both were merely rugged club-fighters seeking glory.............

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Old 11-21-2009, 02:25 PM   #105
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Default Re: Benny Leonard was the greatest lightweight of all time - by a long way

Benny was great but I think Joe Gans was greater. I respect Leonard's Boxing smarts, he always seemed two steps ahead of everyone. The only criticism i have of him though is he didn't knock out as many fighters as he perhaps should have. That's why I would put Gans ahead of him. I also love this little story about Gans, Joe fought the welterweight Dave Holly in Philadelphia, within 24 hrs he travelled 300 miles to Boston and fought one of the all time greats Sam Langford. Losing a 15 round decision (there's no shame in that, I'm sure you'll all agree).
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