Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by My2Sense

So was it Manny's idea for Lewis to come in overweight to South Africa on short notice and then walk in wide open looking for a KO?

More or less, I think it was - a joint effort anyway.
I remember the events that preceded that fight. Manny working Naseem Hamed's corner in Vegas a fortnight earlier, and him and Lewis filming Ocean's Eleven in Hollywood. Then all his bullshit about "we dont need to acclimitise to altitude", etc. etc.

It's ironic, all the Lewis/Steward ass-kissers on this forum are quick to criticize the work of Pepe Correa and put the blame for the McCall defeat on him, but the far more blatant responsibility for the Rahman defeat is ignored, and Steward's made out to be some sort of saviour.

[flamengo]

Originally Posted by janitor

Nothing special as a trainer.

Absolutely outstanding as a corner man.

Do you base this bullshit on contemporary reports??

[lefthook31]

Originally Posted by My2Sense

So was it Manny's idea for Lewis to come in overweight to South Africa on short notice and then walk in wide open looking for a KO?

What does that have to do with Manny being a yes man? Emanuel Steward isnt a military drill sergeant. No trainer calls all the shots for his fighters personal life, at least not the ones that have any fighters to train. Just ask Teddy Atlas why he has no fighters.
If an established fighter like Lewis wanted to take some time out of his days to film a movie, I dont see anything wrong with that nor do I think it effected anything.
Lewis didnt walk in wide open looking for the KO either (that was Correa's fighter ). Rahman was getting his ass handed to him. Lewis simply made a mistake backing straight back like he did. He was knocked out bouncing his back off the ropes not coming in wide open looking for the KO.
To me it was more lack of interest in the fight more than anything, all the altitude and overweight BS is just that, BS. All fighters make mistakes its just that Lewis paid a big price for it and it was his fault more than anything Steward did or didnt do. I can guarantee you Steward setup a nice gameplan for Lewis to follow during camp to prepare for Rahman, and it was working quite well until Lewis lost a bit of focus because of how easy the fight was going. If Lewis was getting beaten pillar to post than I would say it was a fitness problem, but he was in control of the fight for the most part.
Also I wouldnt call 3 pounds overweight for a 6'5" 250 pound man. He was what 6 pounds lighter in the rematch, and 3 pounds heavier than his two previous fights against Tua and Botha? A trainer cant always put intensity into their fighter. They have to want to do it, regarldess of how fit they are, and thats the difference you saw in the rematch.

[lefthook31]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

More or less, I think it was - a joint effort anyway.
I remember the events that preceded that fight. Manny working Naseem Hamed's corner in Vegas a fortnight earlier, and him and Lewis filming Ocean's Eleven in Hollywood. Then all his bullshit about "we dont need to acclimitise to altitude", etc. etc.

It's ironic, all the Lewis/Steward ass-kissers on this forum are quick to criticize the work of Pepe Correa and put the blame for the McCall defeat on him, but the far more blatant responsibility for the Rahman defeat is ignored, and Steward's made out to be some sort of saviour.

I dont agree with this. There was a clear pattern of mistakes that Lewis was making while with Correa. How else was a fighter like Mcall able to expose it so easily, and with his friggen eyes closed? Emanuel Steward trained Oliver Mcall to only throw one punch. When Lewis made a certain move, he instructed him to throw his righthand at the same time because Lewis always came in wide open. Bingo.
As far as Lewis under Correa he approached every fight the same. Whether it was an iron chinned Mcall, or a feather fisted nobody. He went balls out wide open swinging for the fences. Thats why he was, in my opinion, way more inconsistent. He also had no idea how to fight inside.
Emanuel Steward is a heavy offensive minded trainer, and he likes his fighters to move forward with a lot of offense, and thats why you still saw Lennox coming forward but it was definitely 100% more balanced and calculated especially with some of the more accurate bigger punchers.

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by lefthook31

I dont agree with this. There was a clear pattern of mistakes that Lewis was making while with Correa. How else was a fighter like Mcall able to expose it so easily, and with his friggen eyes closed? Emanuel Steward trained Oliver Mcall to only throw one punch. When Lewis made a certain move, he instructed him to throw his righthand at the same time because Lewis always came in wide open. Bingo.
As far as Lewis under Correa he approached every fight the same. Whether it was an iron chinned Mcall, or a feather fisted nobody. He went balls out wide open swinging for the fences. Thats why he was, in my opinion, way more inconsistent. He also had no idea how to fight inside.
Emanuel Steward is a heavy offensive minded trainer, and he likes his fighters to move forward with a lot of offense, and thats why you still saw Lennox coming forward but it was definitely 100% more balanced and calculated especially with some of the more accurate bigger punchers.

Which fights was Correa with Lewis for ?

I thought Lewis improved a bit with Steward too, but he still made mistakes.
I dont see how the McCall loss is any worse from a technical standpoint than the Rahman loss. I'm of the opinion that leaving yourself wide open when throwing a shot is not as bad as leaving yourself open while not throwing anything. Because to some degree, even a perfectly thrown punch will leave the fighter open to some sort of counter - that's basics.

[lefthook31]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

Which fights was Correa with Lewis for ?

I thought Lewis improved a bit with Steward too, but he still made mistakes.
I dont see how the McCall loss is any worse from a technical standpoint than the Rahman loss. I'm of the opinion that leaving yourself wide open when throwing a shot is not as bad as leaving yourself open while not throwing anything. Because to some degree, even a perfectly thrown punch will leave the fighter open to some sort of counter - that's basics.

I do. When your coming forward leaving yourself that open your going to get nailed a lot easier. Correa and Lewis parted company after the Mcall fight.
Lewis just made a focus error in the Rahman fight in my opinion, as compared to a technical error in the Mcall fight. Thats the reason why it was so simply exposed within what two rounds and was the clear gameplan going into that fight. Throw this one punch when he does this. Doesnt matter if your eyes are closed or you cant see, just throw it, because Lewis telegraphed his shots and Lewis will walk right into it.
I was in Lennox Lewis' camp for the Briggs fight. I live in Florida, so many fighters train down here. I watched him spar several times with Mo Harris and Garring Lane, and I was kind of suprised how much showboating he did on the ropes. Emanuel Steward kept telling him to stop and he kept doing it. He would open up and put a whopping on Harris, but he was doing that same kind of crap in sparring, falling back to the ropes and it was pissing Steward off, so thats why I say it was more of a lack of respect and focus error more than anything. Realistically he was having his way with Rahman in the first fight and it kind of looked like a boring sparring match.
You saw more technical errors being exposed with Correa, as was the case in the Mcall and Bruno fights. He was just inconsistent against the better fighters, hot and cold really, plus I dont think he had a clue how to fight and tie up on the inside like Steward made him pretty good at.
He may have looked shaky in spurts against guys like Briggs, but I dont think the Lewis that fought Mcall would have made it through the first half of that fight nor do I think he would have scrapped by Mcall without Steward in his corner and preparing him for the type of fight to expect even though it was going to be a new experience for Lewis.
Same kind of thing with Wlad Klitschko, thats why he could look so good against the top class of fighter, but be beaten my a journeyman if it became less of a boxing match.

[Unforgiven]

Lewis simply wasn't hard to hit with a right hand, and often made the mistake of dropping his hands and clowning or whatever, being cocky. Like he did against Rahman. Technically sloppy, yes, and he fought like that often.
His poor preparation for the Rahman fight probably tipped the balance, with Steward being culpable in the cheerleader role.

Mavrovic hit Lewis with right hand leads, not counters. Rahman got Lewis with a big right hand about 45 seconds before he landed the finisher. Lewis was cocky and dropping his hands and smiling against Briggs and Tua too, and Tucker, and others. That was a flaw. And he was open to right hands when he wasn't punching, a technical flaw.

[lefthook31]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

Lewis simply wasn't hard to hit with a right hand, and often made the mistake of dropping his hands and clowning or whatever, being cocky. Like he did against Rahman. Technically sloppy, yes, and he fought like that often.
His poor preparation for the Rahman fight probably tipped the balance, with Steward being culpable in the cheerleader role.

Mavrovic hit Lewis with right hand leads, not counters. Rahman got Lewis with a big right hand about 45 seconds before he landed the finisher. Lewis was cocky and dropping his hands and smiling against Briggs and Tua too, and Tucker, and others. That was a flaw. And he was open to right hands when he wasn't punching, a technical flaw.

Well to me the bottom line is Lewis just wasnt as great as many think really, and Emanuel Steward having the run he did with Lewis was a big factor for his success. He never really had a a great pro style when entering the pro ranks, but a perfect amatuer style..
Like I said, with Correa, after the Ruddock fight which in my opinion was his real descent into fighting the top guys, he looked bad in 2 of his next four fights.
With Steward he went on a 15 fight clip. That pretty much sums it up for me, even though the fighters were all nothing special really in my opinion.
Lewis was also sumpremely cocky in the ring so thats probably why he did a lot of stupid stuff.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by lefthook31

How about Trevor Berbick

Would you say that Berbicks acomplishments were above and beyond what his talent and the era would suggest they would be?

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by janitor

Would you say that Berbicks acomplishments were above and beyond what his talent and the era would suggest they would be?

Dundee has guided a host of fighters to the title. Not all of them were super talents like Ali and Leonard. Bringing Ellis from middleweight to a HW title ain't bad.

Which were the bums Futch, Blackburn etc transformed?

[Unforgiven]

When was Dundee with Berbick ?
I thought it was just for the Tyson fight.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by Bokaj

Which were the bums Futch, Blackburn etc transformed?

I don't think that Sammy Mandal would necisarily have been a world beater without the right trainer.

[he grant]

Both.

[My2Sense]

Originally Posted by lefthook31

What does that have to do with Manny being a yes man?

Um, everything. You just made a whole big point about, "He doesn't take shit from anyone," but now you're saying he let his fighter call the shots in training.

Originally Posted by lefthook31

No trainer calls all the shots for his fighters personal life, at least not the ones that have any fighters to train.

Well, that's exactly what Dundee did with Jimmy Ellis, and I'd say he had more than a few fighters to train.

Originally Posted by lefthook31

Just ask Teddy Atlas why he has no fighters.

Probably because he's been all mouth and no results for the last decade or so.

Originally Posted by lefthook31

Lewis didnt walk in wide open looking for the KO either (that was Correa's fighter ).

What would you call this then?

7:10 to the end:




He continually walks into jabs to the body, even into an occasional right hand, allows Rahman to tie him up and smother him in close, and continually throws right hands over the top that miss. Even the commentators keep remarking how Lewis is just "walking into" (their exact words) Rahman.

Contrast that to the rematch, in which he uses his footwork to move back around and away from Rahman's jab (instead of walking straight into it) and throws short, sneak right hands:

Originally Posted by lefthook31

Rahman was getting his ass handed to him.

No he wasn't, the fight had been about as far from an "ass handing" for either fighter as you could get. It was a close, sloppy fight and either even or perhaps a slight edge for Lewis when it ended.

Originally Posted by lefthook31

Lewis simply made a mistake backing straight back like he did.

More like he made the "mistake" of running out of gas and eating one right hand too many.

Originally Posted by lefthook31

He was knocked out bouncing his back off the ropes not coming in wide open looking for the KO.

He was knocked out after being rocked by this right hand at 1:45 (which he did clearly walk into) and then hastily tried to avoid a follow up blow.

Originally Posted by lefthook31

I can guarantee you Steward setup a nice gameplan for Lewis to follow during camp to prepare for Rahman, and it was working quite well until Lewis lost a bit of focus because of how easy the fight was going.

How can you "guarantee" anything if you weren't there? And nothing was working "particularly well" for Lewis, he was just barely edging his way through a slow, ugly fight.

Originally Posted by lefthook31

If Lewis was getting beaten pillar to post than I would say it was a fitness problem, but he was in control of the fight for the most part.

Getting beaten pillar to post would suggest a stylistic or quality problem, not necessarily a fitness problem. And no one was "controlling" that mess; at best, Lewis was just edging it.

Originally Posted by lefthook31

Also I wouldnt call 3 pounds overweight for a 6'5" 250 pound man. He was what 6 pounds lighter in the rematch, and 3 pounds heavier than his two previous fights against Tua and Botha? A trainer cant always put intensity into their fighter. They have to want to do

Apparently, they felt losing that 6 pounds was necessary to beat Rahman, along with coming in with a whole new fight plan. If there was nothing wrong with the way he came in the first time, then what was the reason for changing things?

[My2Sense]

Originally Posted by lefthook31

As far as Lewis under Correa he approached every fight the same. Whether it was an iron chinned Mcall, or a feather fisted nobody. He went balls out wide open swinging for the fences.

That's not true, he boxed very well against Phil Jackson, and boxed cautiously against Ruddock until finding that opening just before the 1st round ended.

Originally Posted by lefthook31

Lewis just made a focus error in the Rahman fight in my opinion, as compared to a technical error in the Mcall fight.

You attributed the Rahman loss to "backing straight up", which is a technical error.