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Old 11-27-2009, 08:54 AM   #91
lefthook31
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
I dont know how anyone can defend Manny Steward's role in the lead up to the Rahman defeat.
The things he was saying in public about not needing to acclimatise and how easy the fight will be are actually indefensible,- (and actually many commentators made that a talking point prior to any catastrophe hindsight, his and Lennox's laidback attitude to the fight raised a few eyebrows long before any KO punch landed) - considering his role as chief trainer and reputation as one of the best in the business.
Totally indefensible. Very unprofessional.

Any trainer who says something like "you dont really need to bother much with this guy" - and to say it in public, at that, putting it out in the open as some invincible truth - is just not doing his job right.

And I'm not even sure he was being a "yes man" to Lewis. More like he was just as ****y and ego-driven as Lewis was. It's not like he reluctantly chose to let Lewis get away with it, said **** it and took the money. He seemed to be egging Lewis on most of the time. It was a "we're invincible" attitude.
How much was his fee from Hamed-Barrera ? I'm sure that's relevant. And Manny Steward played himself alongside Lennox Lewis in the Ocean's Eleven thing too. So, it's not like he was waiting for Lewis with his bags packed to fly to S.A.

If Manny Steward can get exonerated for his role in the defeat to Rahman and absolved of any responsibility, then it's pretty hard to criticize any trainer ever for any failings in a champion's preparation. It's an open and shut case.
Honestly I dont remember Steward making comments like that about Rahman. I seriously doubt he did too but maybe you can post up some articles. Rahman was not great, but he was certainly a bigger threat than a guy like Botha. I do remember around that time that Steward was spreading himself a little thin with fighters. He was working with quite a few of them and later said he would only work with that many fighters again if they decided to be in camp together. Just recently he had Jermain Taylor, Andy Lee and Wlad Klitschko all in camp together sparring each other so he could work with all of them.
As far as your last paragraph, theres a bit of a difference. Its not about getting exonerated. Its about Lewis becoming a better fighter under Steward than Correa and unless your clueless its pretty clear he did.
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Old 11-27-2009, 09:07 AM   #92
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

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Lewis didn't fight many fighters who had Bruno's basic but fundamentally sound boxing ability in his subsequent fights. He fought few really good boxers with the size or strength of Bruno. And I think he would always have had problems with Bruno or someone of that ilk.

lefthook31, when I made the same points a few weeks back you seemed to be in full agreement.
Again difference.. I think its pretty clear that Lewis' approach to fights improved as well as his technique, and I wouldnt say Bruno was leagues and leagues better than the fighters Lewis faced, to use that as an excuse.
How do you think it would have played out if he approached fights with guys like David Tua, Evander Holyfield, Ray Mercer and maybe even a shot Mike Tyson in the same manner he did earlier in his career?
Bruno was a decent boxer but even an old Evander Holyfield was a better one, but I think Lewis faced some guys who were just as big of a threat offensively that he could have been layed out had he come forward balls out.

Last edited by lefthook31; 11-27-2009 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 11-27-2009, 09:12 AM   #93
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

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Lewis didn't fight many fighters who had Bruno's basic but fundamentally sound boxing ability in his subsequent fights. He fought few really good boxers with the size or strength of Bruno. And I think he would always have had problems with Bruno or someone of that ilk.

lefthook31, when I made the same points a few weeks back you seemed to be in full agreement.
Sorry thought my above post got deleted but heres another one. Im not saying Lewis became an unstoppable force under Steward, but I think his approach to fights changed under Steward because there was more strategy involved. His technique improved, less wide open punching, a more calcuated approach, better balance, better jab, and overall better ring generalship.
As you said Bruno was one of the better fighters Lewis faced, but Mcall was not even as good as Rahman, and approaching fights with guys like David Tua, Evander Holyfield, Ray Mercer or even an old Mike Tyson in the same manner he did against Mcall, who wasnt going to be KO'd, would have been a bad move. Can you honestly see the Lewis that fought David Tua or Evander Holyfield, losing a round against Mcall, nah, thats why he didnt in the rematch.
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Old 11-27-2009, 10:20 AM   #94
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

Go to 6:43 I believe, listen to Lewis post fight interview, kind of sums up what Ive been saying.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgIeZLaRduI&feature=related[/ame]
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Old 11-27-2009, 11:52 AM   #95
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

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I rewatched Leonard vs Hagler, and he kept saying, "smooth baby". Was Angelo a great trainer or just a yes man for fighters who already had all of the natural talent (Ali, Leonard, Nunn, etc)
The game plan was developed and worked-on time and again in training, or behind the curtain where we didn't really hear or see it. Dundee focused Ray on the plan and the route...and he was expensive enough, and Ray was, at the time, shrewd enough to know to bring Angelo on board, cost notwithstanding.

No doubt Angelo did his best work in the sport BEFORE the 90's or so....but he was never a "yes man". He was one of the greats.
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Old 11-27-2009, 12:00 PM   #96
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

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the game plan was developed and worked-on time and again in training, or behind the curtain where we didn't really hear or see it. Dundee focused ray on the plan and the route...and he was expensive enough, and ray was, at the time, shrewd enough to know to bring angelo on board, cost notwithstanding.

No doubt angelo did his best work in the sport before the 90's or so....but he was never a "yes man". He was one of the greats.
bingo! R
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Old 11-29-2009, 02:10 AM   #97
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

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He didnt thats why he was ahead in the fight.
No, he was ahead in the fight because he opened up enough to win the two middle rounds and was apparently given one of the other rounds that could just as well have gone to Rahman. None of that has any bearing on the fact that he was walking into jabs throughout the fight.

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Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
You said Lewis was edgeing it, which he was ahead by two points officially
No, I said he might've been edging it; I never said I thought he was.

Either way, "edging" a fight is not the same as controlling it.


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Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
No I said Lewis became a better fighter under Steward making less technical mistakes a fighter
And yet he made about as many technical mistakes against Rahman as he ever did.


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Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
I didnt nor did the judges, so obviously you dont know what your looking at.
Uh, yeah, I missed the part where you and three random other people are the standard for scoring fights.

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Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
And your an admitted Steward hater, so your blinded by bias.
I never said I "hated" anyone. You were the one that used that word in an effort to dismiss what I had said, along with denying and/or putting spin jobs on things that are actually on video and plain to see.

Either way, I don't see what that has to do with the ****y and unprofessional shit Manny said before the fight.

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Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
He didnt show those flaws in the SA fight, I dont what your taking about, he showed lack of motivation and fire really.
Then look at the fight right here, point by point:


BORKED

At 5:02 of the video, Lewis is walking in lazily and right into a upward jab followed by an overhand right by Rahman.

At 5:54, Lewis stands in front of Rahman and gets hit by a couple of jabs to the body.

6:00 - Lewis stands flat footed looking to unload his right, and Rahman pops him with another hard jab to the chest.

6:04 - Lewis continues to plod after Rahman and allows him to pop him twice with jabs to the body and circle around him.

Both Merchant and Lederman score the round for Rahman.

7:26 - Lewis walks in and misses a telegraphed right hand over the top.

By 8:00, Lewis is already fighting with his mouth open. From that point until the end of the round, he almost exclusively walks forward looking to either land overhand rights or counter with uppercuts on the inside.

9:04 - Lewis misses another telegraphed right hand over the top.

9:10 - Lewis is visibly sucking air.

9:19 - Lewis misses with another lead overhand right and again walks into a clinch.

9:38 - Lewis again walks in and misses an overhand right.

--------------------

BORKED

0.11 - Lewis walks in and misses yet another overhand right.

1:39 - Lewis moves into a jab to the body by Rahman.

1:49 - Lewis winds up with an ultra telegraphed overhand right, and again misses.

2:12 - Lewis stands flatfooted in front of Rahman and allows him to pop him with a jab to the body.

2:18 - 2:22, Rahman circles around a flatfooted Lewis and pops him with a series of jabs to the face.

2:49 - Lewis throws another telegraphed overhand right that again misses, and again goes into a clinch.

3:23 - Lewis walks into a jab to the stomach that makes him stumble backward.

3:26 - Lewis walks into a hard upward jab to the face by Rahman and then into a clinch.

4:04 - Lewis walks into another jab that snaps his head back.

4:07 - 4:17, Lewis looks weary as he allows Rahman to open up with both hands on the inside and then backs to the ropes with his hands at his sides.

4:30 - 4:52, Lewis is huffing and puffing as he sits in his corner after only three relatively slow paced rounds. Steward tells him he's "looking good" and to continue fighting as he is, but just add more left hooks.

5:52 - Lewis is rushing into Rahman with arms wide open, and Rahman slips in a short right inside.

5:56 - Lewis walks into another jab that snaps his head back.

6:00 - Rahman slips in an overhand right as Lewis stands flatfooted and leaves himself open reaching in for an uppercut to the body. Rahman then bullies Lewis to the ropes.

6:42 - Lewis walks into another right hand by Rahman.

6:46 - Lewis moves into another jab by Rahman.

6:50 - Lewis moves into another jab to the stomach by Rahman.

6:57 - Lewis again allows Rahman to tie him up on the inside.

7:07 - Lewis stands squared up and simply covers up as Rahman opens up on him.

By 7:20, Lewis appears to be breathing very hard and is fighting with his hands at his side.

7:36 - Lewis walks openly into a jab and follow up right by Rahman.

7:40 - 8:36, Lewis lazily stalks Rahman with his hands at his side, making almost no effort at all to block punches as he moves in.

8:32 - Lewis stands wide open with his left hand on Rahman's head and allows Rahman to hit him with a left uppercut to the body.

The commentators all agree Rahman won the round, making the fight dead even two rounds apiece on their cards.

In between rounds, Steward tells Lewis merely to throw left hooks, and "you're gonna knock him outta here".

--------------------

BORKED

0:15 - 1:11, Lewis is walking in wide open trying left hands, as per Steward's "gameplan".

1:46 - As Lewis moves in, flat footed and wide open, looking for another punch, he walks into a big overhand right by Rahman.

1:55 - Lewis, with his hands down, moves into a quick double jab by Rahman.

2:09 - Lewis continues to stalk after Rahman with his hands down and walks into an upward jab that makes him stumble back slightly. Meanwhile, the commentators remark at how Lewis has been merely walking in wide open for most of the night.

2:26 - 2:33, Lewis wearily stumbles away to avoid a right hand that Rahman is winding up to throw, then backs against the ropes with his mouth wide open and mouthpiece practically falling out, and... well, you know the rest.

--------------------

I don't understand how you can look at all this and then flat out deny that Lewis was walking in wide open for most of the fight, telegraphing right hands, and walking into jabs and right hands, when it's all clearly there on video and has been pointed out to you. If you don't consider that "walking in wide open", then what is?? And where was that "control" that you claimed Lewis had in the fight? Rahman won the previous round big, arguably won the first as well, and had rocked Lewis with a big right hand just seconds before the KO.

Last edited by My2Sense; 11-29-2009 at 04:12 AM.
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Old 11-29-2009, 08:03 AM   #98
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

Thats a wonderful breakdown of the fight, but I dont care to read it. Of course the fight was closer than the second one, because Lewis fought very laid back and complacent, Ive acknowledged that. But that doesnt hold Steward accountable for Lewis not taking Rahman as seriously as he should have. It also doesnt detract in anyway from Stewards ability as a trainer either especially with the success they had together. Its not like Lewis was regressing or clearly getting worse like other fighters weve discussed. It was just a momentary lapse, or reality check for Lewis. Fighters dont win every fight, thats why only one heavyweight champion in history has retired undefeated.
Proof is there how good Steward is, if you dont care to acknowledge it, you and probably two other people on the planet are in the same boat, so dicussing a fight with a person who cant even acknowledge something so blatantly obvious is worthless. Take a look at his second fight with Rahman, you'll see a motivated Lewis running into Rahmans jab as well, because Rahman had a fairly good one.
You heard it from the mans mouth, dont you think when Larry Merchant gave him that leading question to detract from Rahman's first performance even more by saying "can you know admit you didnt train hard and prepare properly for the first fight", Lewis would have taken that and ran to make Rahman look even worse? Of course he would have, but no he said he was in good shape. He just fought lazy (somewhat like a sparring session) with not a lot of intensity because most champions get somewhat complacent after 10 title defenses and Lewis certainly fought that way.
Kudos to Rahman for taking it serious as he should and just another lesson for any fighter that every title fight is as serious as the other because you never know when King Kong is going to show up, but I dont even think spending an extra two weeks from the already two weeks he was there would have made much difference, because Lewis simply wasnt motivated for the fight.
And for the record, Im confident in my comment you hate Steward and Mike Tyson, just by reading your other posts.
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Old 12-03-2009, 07:08 PM   #99
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

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Thats a wonderful breakdown of the fight, but I dont care to read it.
Why not? It's the whole crux of the matter here. You've repeatedly denied Lewis showing the very obvious technical flaws that the breakdown clearly points out. This is no different than what he did against Bruno and McCall, which you held his pre-Steward trainers at least partially responsible for allowing to happen. What's on film is what actually happened; anything else is just pure fantasy storytelling.

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Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
But that doesnt hold Steward accountable for Lewis not taking Rahman as seriously as he should have.
Yes it does. Steward said beforehand that Lewis was going to fight exactly as he did here - going foward and looking for the quick KO - and he was pleased with that; which means Steward either came up with this poor gameplan himself, or simply didn't care what, if any plan Lewis came in with.


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Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
Take a look at his second fight with Rahman, you'll see a motivated Lewis running into Rahmans jab as well, because Rahman had a fairly good one.
Where do you see Lewis running into Rahman's jab in that fight? When Lewis got hit with jabs in the second fight (which was far less frequently than in the first), it was as he was on his toes backing away or trying to step around them. His gameplan and technique (not just his "motivation") for each fight was as clearly different as night and day.

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You heard it from the mans mouth, ...
I also heard quite differently from his mouth (and Steward's) coming into the fight.
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Old 12-03-2009, 07:28 PM   #100
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

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Why not? It's the whole crux of the matter here. You've repeatedly denied Lewis showing the very obvious technical flaws that the breakdown clearly points out. This is no different than what he did against Bruno and McCall, which you held his pre-Steward trainers at least partially responsible for allowing to happen. What's on film is what actually happened; anything else is just pure fantasy storytelling.



Yes it does. Steward said beforehand that Lewis was going to fight exactly as he did here - going foward and looking for the quick KO - and he was pleased with that; which means Steward either came up with this poor gameplan himself, or simply didn't care what, if any plan Lewis came in with.




Where do you see Lewis running into Rahman's jab in that fight? When Lewis got hit with jabs in the second fight (which was far less frequently than in the first), it was as he was on his toes backing away or trying to step around them. His gameplan and technique (not just his "motivation") for each fight was as clearly different as night and day.



I also heard quite differently from his mouth (and Steward's) coming into the fight.
Why? I told you why, because your perception of reality is way off base due to your hatred of Emanuel Steward, for whatever reason? Like I said, your probably the only person on the planet that thinks hes not one of the better trainers out there, so your argueing with a clear agenda that doesnt make any 2sense.
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Old 12-03-2009, 08:03 PM   #101
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

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Why? I told you why, because your perception of reality is way off base due to your hatred of Emanuel Steward, for whatever reason? Like I said, your probably the only person on the planet that thinks hes not one of the better trainers out there, so your argueing with a clear agenda that doesnt make any 2sense.
What I've said is not my "perception" of reality, it IS reality; it's right there on the film and has been clearly pointed out. You can't deny what's right there in front of your eyes.
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Old 12-03-2009, 08:39 PM   #102
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

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What I've said is not my "perception" of reality, it IS reality; it's right there on the film and has been clearly pointed out. You can't deny what's right there in front of your eyes.
Our disagreement is about the ability of Emanuel Steward as a trainer. Im not denying Lewis looked like shit in the first fight, but it wasnt because of anything Emanuel Steward did or caused. He was dealing with an unmotivated long established champion who by common nature got complacent from being on a 6 year active winning streak. If anything, it was probably a good thing for Lewis because it certainly motivated Lewis to finish out his career nicely.
Nothing he said or did to Lewis put him in a detrimental situation in the fight. If you want to blame him for not being able to convince Lewis that he needs approach every fight with the same intensity fine, but again, it doesnt detract from Stewards track record as a trainer who has accomplished some pretty big things with fighters of all skill levels. Accomplishments that havent been equalled by more than a handful of guys in the history of the sport.
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Old 12-05-2009, 08:09 PM   #103
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

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Im not denying Lewis looked like shit in the first fight, but it wasnt because of anything Emanuel Steward did or caused.
Steward wanted Lewis to fight as he did, and made that clear before the fight. He exhibited just as much complacency/overconfidence in his approach to the fight as Lewis did, and he deserves criticism for that as much as any other trainer would/should.
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Old 12-05-2009, 08:22 PM   #104
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

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Steward wanted Lewis to fight as he did, and made that clear before the fight. He exhibited just as much complacency/overconfidence in his approach to the fight as Lewis did, and he deserves criticism for that as much as any other trainer would/should.
If thats the case, how does that make him an overated trainer or prove that he didnt improve Lewis as a fighter over the past six years they won and defended the title together?
The title was basically taken away from him by Emanuel Steward exposing a technical flaw that Steward picked up on in Lewis, and thats a fact, he said it before, during, and after the fight what he had programmed Mcall to do.
The title was lost to Rahman by overconfidence and complacency like you said.

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Old 12-05-2009, 08:32 PM   #105
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Default Re: Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

Dundee was also with Pinklon Thomas.
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