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Old 03-31-2013, 06:29 PM   #61
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Default Re: debunking the myth of louis being completely past it ...

Joe Louis may no longer have been the pre war phenomenon he had been when he fought Rocky but was actually still a genuine, outstanding contender in his own right at that time. Louis was not some has been dug up for some golden boy to beat on. Louis was about 75% of his postwar self against Marciano. Louis was not coming out of retirement he was still winning fights, active, rated, even favoured to beat Marciano. It was nothing like Ali and Holmes coming out of retirement to take a beating.

Sure, if he was younger Joe would have made easier work of the men he beat after charles but the fact is even that form by another fighter (not called joe louis) would have justified the higher rating and been the bookies choice against new kid like Marciano.
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Old 03-31-2013, 06:59 PM   #62
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Default Re: debunking the myth of louis being completely past it ...

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Joe Louis may no longer have been the pre war phenomenon he had been when he fought Rocky but was actually still a genuine, outstanding contender in his own right at that time. Louis was not some has been dug up for some golden boy to beat on. Louis was about 75% of his postwar self against Marciano. Louis was not coming out of retirement he was still winning fights, active, rated, even favoured to beat Marciano. It was nothing like Ali and Holmes coming out of retirement to take a beating.

Sure, if he was younger Joe would have made easier work of the men he beat after charles but the fact is even that form by another fighter (not called joe louis) would have justified the higher rating and been the bookies choice against new kid like Marciano.
It was an absolutely horrible era. What if Henry Maske was the best contender in 2002 and Lewis was given great credit for fighting him? That's Marciano.
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Old 03-31-2013, 07:08 PM   #63
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Default Re: debunking the myth of louis being completely past it ...

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It was an absolutely horrible era. What if Henry Maske was the best contender in 2002 and Lewis was given great credit for fighting him? That's Marciano.
Not quite. Maske never beat a decent cruiser. Film proves there were excellent fighters around. Interest in the sport would have seriously dwindled if the quality was as poor as you would like to believe it was.
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:02 PM   #64
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Default Re: debunking the myth of louis being completely past it ...

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Not quite. Maske never beat a decent cruiser. Film proves there were excellent fighters around. Interest in the sport would have seriously dwindled if the quality was as poor as you would like to believe it was.
57 million males had just died. There was a great depletion of talent. They got by with what was left.
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:30 PM   #65
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Default Re: debunking the myth of louis being completely past it ...

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57 million males had just died. There was a great depletion of talent. They got by with what was left.
walcott, charles and archie moore made their name as ATGs during this period. Did they cherry pick? elmer ray, joe baksi, clarence henry, jimmy bivins? Then Layne, Satterfeild, valdes and Baker???
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:37 PM   #66
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Default Re: debunking the myth of louis being completely past it ...

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walcott, charles and archie moore made their name as ATGs during this period. Did they cherry pick? elmer ray, joe baksi, clarence henry, jimmy bivins? Then Layne, Satterfeild, valdes and Baker???

good reply, as tough of an era as any very experienced talented Champions but there will always be those picking hairs when they have an agenda
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:55 PM   #67
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Default Re: debunking the myth of louis being completely past it ...

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I think it is possible to give Marciano credit for the fight, without detracting from Louis.

Louis was the greatest heavyweight of all time in his prime.

At this stage he was totally past it, but it would still have taken an exceptional fighter to beat him.

Its not an either or thing.
I agree.

Marciano may not have beaten the almighty The Brown Bomber, but he did beat a very good, legit contender, which still warrants some measure of credit.
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Old 04-01-2013, 02:20 AM   #68
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Default Re: debunking the myth of louis being completely past it ...

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Louis was not coming out of retirement he was still winning fights, active, rated, even favoured to beat Marciano. It was nothing like Ali and Holmes coming out of retirement to take a beating.
Louis was favored partly because Marciano was not that highly regarded at that point in his career, that and Louis reputation. I agree that he had more left in him than Ali had against Holmes but thats not saying much.

Joe was a one handed 37 year old heavyweight who was fighting for the $. He had lost any zip on his righthand but he did still have a good jab and his hook was still potent as he had proven against Lee Savold.

Anyway it was still an impressive showing by Rocky Marciano because he did what he was supposed to do.
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:32 AM   #69
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Default Re: debunking the myth of louis being completely past it ...

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The fact is that Louis WAS completely past it when he fought Marciano... FOR HIM. The thing about Louis is that he was so damn great that even being way past it, he was still better than most everyone except for a few guys, so he looks like a competitive fighter. But he was a shell of what he once was. Most of the guys he fought on the comeback he would have quickly drilled in his prime.

Just watch the prewar footage on him and then watch the post war footage. The difference is marked, IMO. He is way faster, more active with feet and hands, more blazing with his speed and reactions pre-war than post. But he was still a solid boxer, so yes, he was at least competitive against Marciano even being relatively slow, with few punches, no combos, and his power punches, particularly his vaunted right, almost gone.
This post says it all

Louis had nine fights on the comeback trail prior to Marciano ,he managed just one ko and 2 tkos, his right hand was no longer the lethal wallop it had been, he relied on his jab and hook .
As Adam says ,the fact that he was competitive just demonstrates how good he was when in his prime.
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:52 AM   #70
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Default Re: debunking the myth of louis being completely past it ...

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Louis was favored partly because Marciano was not that highly regarded at that point in his career, that and Louis reputation. I agree that he had more left in him than Ali had against Holmes but thats not saying much.

Joe was a one handed 37 year old heavyweight who was fighting for the $. He had lost any zip on his righthand but he did still have a good jab and his hook was still potent as he had proven against Lee Savold.

Anyway it was still an impressive showing by Rocky Marciano because he did what he was supposed to do.
A younger Joe Louis would have got his hands free a bit quicker but he was so utterly crowded as he was in his prime by that other charlie goldman trained swarmer Arturo Godoy that he was made to look much worse than he was against Rocky. Joe was smothered and barged into the ropes but in rounds 3,4,5 Louis changed tactics against Rocky and got a defensive, fending jab going but again there was no room to work off it and the effort drained him.
Rocky was a bad match up for Louis, an extraordinaryly awkward fighter who always would have been both smaller and stronger than Louis.
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Old 04-01-2013, 05:00 AM   #71
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Default Re: debunking the myth of louis being completely past it ...

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57 million males had just died. There was a great depletion of talent. They got by with what was left.
in ww2 around half a million u.s casualties, or <0.5% of the population, 1% of males, a maximum of 5% potential boxers lost.
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Old 04-01-2013, 05:13 AM   #72
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Default Re: debunking the myth of louis being completely past it ...

i read somewhere that louis during his comeback only had limited use of his right hand so if he beat the men he did with one hand then its a feat in itself
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Old 04-01-2013, 05:39 AM   #73
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Default Re: debunking the myth of louis being completely past it ...

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i read somewhere that louis during his comeback only had limited use of his right hand so if he beat the men he did with one hand then its a feat in itself
Marciano restricted the use of Louis's right. There was no room to use it. Against more upright conventional contenders Louis was still dangerous post Charles with his right hand, film bares this out. I am sure he scored knockdowns with his right hand during this period.
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Old 04-01-2013, 05:41 AM   #74
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Default Re: debunking the myth of louis being completely past it ...

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in ww2 around half a million u.s casualties, or <0.5% of the population, 1% of males, a maximum of 5% potential boxers lost.
how many heavyweight contenders perished in the war?
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:09 AM   #75
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Default Re: debunking the myth of louis being completely past it ...

undoubtably many talents killed or injured, not enough to change the american hw scene as much as seamus's post suggested tho.

i think louis was at pretty much finished at world level, the marciano fight was because of his name, rather than his skills/chance of winning
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