the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread. - Page 186

lufcrazy · 12-28-2012, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McGrain

I score them if the fight is being fought in an era where even rounds are frequently scored.

This does bring its own problems. For example, a fighter could be out-thought, out-worked, out-boxed, out-landed and win a fight after taking the first three rounds clear. It would also breed conservatism in the opening rounds, for that reason.

Boxing is scored like snooker or darts with the exception that being much better than your opponent in just one round can result in your winning the fight on some sort of stoppage. So i think it's system is superior to either of those sports for that reason.

Supplementary scoring brings its own nightmare scenarios. I think we've settled on ten points must for a reason, personally.

Yeah that's the flipside. It isn't really a fight at all it's a discipline.

12 mini fights whoever wins the most wins the whole fight. That is the basis of 10 point must and that's currently how I score myself.

Like you say if a boxer gets outclassed for 1 round he can regroup and go out there knowing if he does enough to nick the next round it's back level. It adds to the drams of the sport and does set it above others for that reason to me also.

I think what I'm trying to say is I agree with everything you say I just mean in terms of raw ability a fight can have a misleading conclusion based on a scorecard using this system I.e. Fighter A edges 6 rounds, fighter B dominates 6 rounds and the fight is a draw.

McGrain · 12-28-2012, 08:07 AM

I wouldn't mind seeing a more liberal use of the 10-8 score in theory, but can you imagine how open it leaves the sport to corrupting inlfuences? The sport isn't clean enough to support it IMO.

lufcrazy · 12-28-2012, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McGrain

I wouldn't mind seeing a more liberal use of the 10-8 score in theory, but can you imagine how open it leaves the sport to corrupting inlfuences? The sport isn't clean enough to support it IMO.

Yeah it wouldn't be the most difficult thing to corrupt.

10 point is the best system boxing has had thus far imo and although I think a better system is out there I don't know what that system is.

Judges should be held accountable though, able to justify their scoring under investigation. They're only job in life is to determine who did better in 3 minutes and that's gotta be something they have to defend.

salsanchezfan · 12-28-2012, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McGrain

Larry Holmes SD Tim Witherspoon

Wish this had been 15 rounds, they probably could have settled it with more clarity. There's a moment in the 12th, where Witherspoon is up on his toes, crowd loving it, and Larry just blasts him with a beautiful straight, one of his best punches. Of course, Witherspoon likely wouldn't have done that in 12th if it wasn't the last round, but I think that was a bit of a tide-turning punch against a tired opponent.

Not that Witherspoon didn't miss his own chase to win the fight, I think that he was unaware of how hurt Holmes was in the 9th, which is as good as the final round of Norton-Holmes for me. Close, good fight, with Witherspoon showing a world class taste for range, even if all that shit about his "out-jabbing" Holmes is just that. Holmes landed more, better jabs.

HOLMES:1,2,4,5,11,12
WITHERSPOON:3,6,7,8,9,10

So I have Holmes rallying for a draw after a disastrous third quarter. Ultra-close rounds (rounds I was uncomfortable scoring) were 2,6 and 8, so if I were to score rounds even, I would have Holmes shading it. I guess that makes me happy with a Holmes win if it had to go one way or the other even if the overall flavour of the fight doesn't neccessarily feel that way.

I had it 6-6 as well.

orriray59 · 12-28-2012, 12:06 PM

Watched a bunch of Joe Louis yesterday, along with Ricardo Lopez vs. Rosendo Alvarez II. Good fight.

salsanchezfan · 12-28-2012, 01:07 PM

Just watched Robinson-Maxim for the LHW title, which I pleasingly found complete on youtube. Terrible fight, though no fault of Robinson's. He was brilliant, boxing and slugging alternately in masterful fashion.

Maxim really was completely inept, though. Jesus, he was terrible. Of course so much credit has to go to Ray for handling him the way he did but Maxim made it so easy for Robinson, taking zero advantage of his size, just slowly lumbering forward while almost never throwing any punches at all. He was just horrific. Especially after tasting Robinson's best shots early (and he did) it should have been obvious to him that he could march forward with relative ease and at least throw. Robinson never hurt him, but the champion seemed to want to box Ray from a distance, which was idiotic. The only round I could clearly give Maxim was the 13th, and that was because Robinson was half dead from heat exhaustion. I had one other round even, and otherwise it was a whitewash for Ray.

lora · 12-28-2012, 02:30 PM

I've always thought Maxim was an overrated fighter as well.Though that was certainly one of his worst performances.

One of the guys from that era that genuinely gets too much props from having mixed with everyone and had a long deep career.Sure that's great to a point and gives him advantages over many more modern fighters and he was tough as hell, but he was just never that talented.

If he'd been from a slightly more modern era with all that entails in terms of amount of fights etc there's no way he'd be as highly regarded.A Virgil Hill or Henry Maske at best( if he could get hold of a belt in a weaker period) or an only marginally remembered\praised Finnegan or Fourie if he was in a deeper era.In fact i think all of them were better than him.

salsanchezfan · 12-28-2012, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lora

I've always thought Maxim was an overrated fighter as well.Though that was certainly one of his worst performances.

One of the guys from that era that genuinely gets too much props from having mixed with everyone and had a long deep career.Sure that's great to a point and gives him advantages over many more modern fighters and he was tough as hell, but he was just never that talented.

If he'd been from a slightly more modern era with all that entails in terms of amount of fights etc there's no way he'd be as highly regarded.A Virgil Hill or Henry Maske at best( if he could get hold of a belt in a weaker period) or an only marginally remembered\praised Finnegan or Fourie if he was in a deeper era.In fact i think all of them were better than him.

He sure didn't impress in this one. A slightly more mobile heavybag is what he was. Bleh.

Richel Hersisia · 12-28-2012, 03:09 PM

Hector Camacho Edwin Rosario

10-9
10-9
10-9
10-10
9-10
9-10
10-9
9-10
10-9
9-10
9-10
9-10

114-115

I am tyler · 12-29-2012, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill1234

Leonard-Hagler. Scored it 7-5 in favor of Hagler. Leonard's flurries didn't do enough to get him the rounds, Hagler's punches were much more effective IMO.

Recently watched that fight again. First time i had Leonard edging it, but my most recent viewing left me with 114-114 even.

salsanchezfan · 12-29-2012, 12:10 PM

Today it was Ralph "Tiger" Jones taking a ten-round decision from a comebacking Sugar Ray Robinson, from (I think) 1952, maybe '53. Anyway, Jones was the clear winner 6-3-1 on my card. For the first six or seven rounds, Robinson's patented flurries were missing and his legs didn't seem to want to carry him they way they had before his first retirement. Jones jabbed his way in well and banged Robinson with both hands. Ray fired back in spurts, but he just couldn't sustain anything.

Robinson started to dance a bit and string together some nice combinations starting in the eighth, but by then Jones had quite a lead, and it seemed to be done more in desperation than anything.

This was one of those fights that to me shows without question how much better the rank and file fighters were then compared to now. Jones had lost five straight coming into that bout, but showed really good skills, very solid workmanship so badly missing in today's fringe and journeyman fighters. Jones would give any of today's middleweights a huge run for their money and beat most outright, but back then five guys who probably wouldn't even sniff a title fight at the time took his measure before he got to Robinson. You couldn't sleep on anyone back then, so few easy touches. That's why I roll my eyes when someone argues that all these fights they took back then were mostly meaningless because they were all against tomato cans. They are forgetting that the situation was different then; a journeyman then would outclass most fringe contenders of today's ilk, and what passes for a contender today would be considered a journeyman then, and that's being kind. The ante was raised to the degree that I'd say yes...........if they fought 100 fights against today's fighters, you bet. Pretty meaningless. Back then, almost everyone was a threat. Don't believe it? Go watch Jones in this fight. That's a guy that had lost five straight going into that match.

Now get off my lawn.

Vysotsky · 12-30-2012, 01:16 PM

Orzubek Nazarov vs Dingaan Thobela I

N---T
10-9
10-9
10-9
8-10
10-9
9-10
10-9
10-9
10-9
10-8
10-9
10-9

117-109 Nazarov * 116-110 Nazarov

* Around half the rounds were close but clear enough to decidedly give it to someone aside from the 2nd round which really could be given to either guy. If given to Thobela then it's 116-110 Nazarov.

Rd 4 Nazarov coming forward walks right into a left hook he doesn't see at all and gets dropped. He's literally up by the count of 1 and looks clear headed and fine but the round ends right away. Don't think he wa hurt.

Rd 9 by the end of this round Nazarov's eye is almost completely shut

Rd 10 Nazarov legit hurts Thobela 2x and then drops him later in the round with a nice right hook while chasing him down.

Rd 11 Nazarov legit hurts Thobela again

Rd 12 Thobela starts clinching like crazy worse than Ruiz. The body punching and all around punishment has taken its effect the last couple rounds and he wants no more, just to finish the fight already.

Nazarov's body punching played a big factor, the first 3 rounds were close and in the 4th Nazarov took control with great body punching which also opened up more headshots for him. He really dominated the 4th up until getting dropped in the last 10 seconds. I scored it 10-8 Thobela giving him full credit for the KD but if you were going to only score it 10-9 due to the guy getting dropped having dominated the rest of the round this would be a good example. Nazarov got away from the body punch for the next few rounds but around the 8th started really working it again, hurting Thobela and took over the fight. Nazarov hurting Thobela as much as he did really speaks for his power considering Thobela won a belt at SMW and went 12 rounds with Kessler. It sounds like Nazarov beat him up even worse in their rematch.

Very entertaining fight and im really hoping Flea got his hands on the rematch and will share with us.

salsanchezfan · 12-30-2012, 05:06 PM

Watched Hagler-Watts I on youtube. I know this one is always touted as a huge screw job on Hagler but honestlyt, I saw it as a very close fight. Not what I would call a robbery at all. I did have Hagler winning 6 rounds to 4, but that's a close fight, and Hagler wasn't particularly effective in cutting off the ring on Watts, allowing him room to move and flurry quite a bit. This loss and the legend that's been built up around it as a travesty might be more a product of that whole persecution complex we know Hagler had, because I've seen many, many worse calls than this. Particularly being fought in Watts' hometown, I can't see much room for him to bitch about it. Good scrap though.

lora · 12-30-2012, 06:56 PM

aye, i agree.Never thought Hagler Watts was a terrible robbery.Just a controversial decision 6-4 either way sort of bout.Hagler looked like a poor man's Kalule trying to get his shots off on the front-foot against the mobile Watts.

salsanchezfan · 12-31-2012, 09:31 AM

Lora, your screen name reminded me I had never seen any Miguel Lora, despite being so entrenched in 80's fighters. His fights were never aired on TV, at least out west here. All I had to go on were some complimentary boxing magazine reports on his fights.

Yesterday I watched the Avelar and Zaragoza matches. He was sensational against the seemingly timeless Avelar, who I know dated back quite a ways from there, so I would imagine he was pretty dilapidated by then, but from what I have seen of Avelar he'd be hard pressed to ever beat footwork like that anyway. Great movement from Lora, and he shows good power and strings punches together well. I could do without the "Hey, look at me; I'm Wilfredo Gomez" clowning which I saw in both fights, but he was certainly worth watching. Wish more of him was available.

He was less effective, naturally, against a still young Zaragoza (he still had hair, that's how I know), but a lot of that may have been the southpaw adjustment showing, not sure. I thought Lora maybe loaded up a bit too much and was banking on a few big shots to carry the day for him when he could have chopped Zaragoza down a bit more methodically, but hard to fault the man for a title-winning effort.

12-28-2012, 08:07 AM	#2777
McGrain Diamond Dog East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 63,255 vCash: 1000	Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread. I wouldn't mind seeing a more liberal use of the 10-8 score in theory, but can you imagine how open it leaves the sport to corrupting inlfuences? The sport isn't clean enough to support it IMO.
Top

12-28-2012, 12:06 PM	#2780
orriray59 weird East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: The Green Isle Posts: 13,250 vCash: 82	Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread. Watched a bunch of Joe Louis yesterday, along with Ricardo Lopez vs. Rosendo Alvarez II. Good fight.
Top

12-28-2012, 01:07 PM	#2781
salsanchezfan Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Auburn, WA Posts: 6,895 vCash: 1000	Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread. Just watched Robinson-Maxim for the LHW title, which I pleasingly found complete on youtube. Terrible fight, though no fault of Robinson's. He was brilliant, boxing and slugging alternately in masterful fashion. Maxim really was completely inept, though. Jesus, he was terrible. Of course so much credit has to go to Ray for handling him the way he did but Maxim made it so easy for Robinson, taking zero advantage of his size, just slowly lumbering forward while almost never throwing any punches at all. He was just horrific. Especially after tasting Robinson's best shots early (and he did) it should have been obvious to him that he could march forward with relative ease and at least throw. Robinson never hurt him, but the champion seemed to want to box Ray from a distance, which was idiotic. The only round I could clearly give Maxim was the 13th, and that was because Robinson was half dead from heat exhaustion. I had one other round even, and otherwise it was a whitewash for Ray.
Top

12-28-2012, 02:30 PM	#2782
lora Fighting Zapata East Side Guru Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 5,453 vCash: 500	Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread. I've always thought Maxim was an overrated fighter as well.Though that was certainly one of his worst performances. One of the guys from that era that genuinely gets too much props from having mixed with everyone and had a long deep career.Sure that's great to a point and gives him advantages over many more modern fighters and he was tough as hell, but he was just never that talented. If he'd been from a slightly more modern era with all that entails in terms of amount of fights etc there's no way he'd be as highly regarded.A Virgil Hill or Henry Maske at best( if he could get hold of a belt in a weaker period) or an only marginally remembered\praised Finnegan or Fourie if he was in a deeper era.In fact i think all of them were better than him.
Top

12-28-2012, 03:09 PM	#2784
Richel Hersisia Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,082 vCash: 1360	Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread. Hector Camacho Edwin Rosario 10-9 10-9 10-9 10-10 9-10 9-10 10-9 9-10 10-9 9-10 9-10 9-10 114-115
Top

12-29-2012, 12:10 PM	#2786
salsanchezfan Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Auburn, WA Posts: 6,895 vCash: 1000	Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread. Today it was Ralph "Tiger" Jones taking a ten-round decision from a comebacking Sugar Ray Robinson, from (I think) 1952, maybe '53. Anyway, Jones was the clear winner 6-3-1 on my card. For the first six or seven rounds, Robinson's patented flurries were missing and his legs didn't seem to want to carry him they way they had before his first retirement. Jones jabbed his way in well and banged Robinson with both hands. Ray fired back in spurts, but he just couldn't sustain anything. Robinson started to dance a bit and string together some nice combinations starting in the eighth, but by then Jones had quite a lead, and it seemed to be done more in desperation than anything. This was one of those fights that to me shows without question how much better the rank and file fighters were then compared to now. Jones had lost five straight coming into that bout, but showed really good skills, very solid workmanship so badly missing in today's fringe and journeyman fighters. Jones would give any of today's middleweights a huge run for their money and beat most outright, but back then five guys who probably wouldn't even sniff a title fight at the time took his measure before he got to Robinson. You couldn't sleep on anyone back then, so few easy touches. That's why I roll my eyes when someone argues that all these fights they took back then were mostly meaningless because they were all against tomato cans. They are forgetting that the situation was different then; a journeyman then would outclass most fringe contenders of today's ilk, and what passes for a contender today would be considered a journeyman then, and that's being kind. The ante was raised to the degree that I'd say yes...........if they fought 100 fights against today's fighters, you bet. Pretty meaningless. Back then, almost everyone was a threat. Don't believe it? Go watch Jones in this fight. That's a guy that had lost five straight going into that match. Now get off my lawn.
Top

12-30-2012, 01:16 PM	#2787
Vysotsky Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 7,609 vCash: 1000	Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread. Orzubek Nazarov vs Dingaan Thobela I N---T 10-9 10-9 10-9 8-10 10-9 9-10 10-9 10-9 10-9 10-8 10-9 10-9 117-109 Nazarov * 116-110 Nazarov * Around half the rounds were close but clear enough to decidedly give it to someone aside from the 2nd round which really could be given to either guy. If given to Thobela then it's 116-110 Nazarov. Rd 4 Nazarov coming forward walks right into a left hook he doesn't see at all and gets dropped. He's literally up by the count of 1 and looks clear headed and fine but the round ends right away. Don't think he wa hurt. Rd 9 by the end of this round Nazarov's eye is almost completely shut Rd 10 Nazarov legit hurts Thobela 2x and then drops him later in the round with a nice right hook while chasing him down. Rd 11 Nazarov legit hurts Thobela again Rd 12 Thobela starts clinching like crazy worse than Ruiz. The body punching and all around punishment has taken its effect the last couple rounds and he wants no more, just to finish the fight already. Nazarov's body punching played a big factor, the first 3 rounds were close and in the 4th Nazarov took control with great body punching which also opened up more headshots for him. He really dominated the 4th up until getting dropped in the last 10 seconds. I scored it 10-8 Thobela giving him full credit for the KD but if you were going to only score it 10-9 due to the guy getting dropped having dominated the rest of the round this would be a good example. Nazarov got away from the body punch for the next few rounds but around the 8th started really working it again, hurting Thobela and took over the fight. Nazarov hurting Thobela as much as he did really speaks for his power considering Thobela won a belt at SMW and went 12 rounds with Kessler. It sounds like Nazarov beat him up even worse in their rematch. Very entertaining fight and im really hoping Flea got his hands on the rematch and will share with us.
Top

12-30-2012, 05:06 PM	#2788
salsanchezfan Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Auburn, WA Posts: 6,895 vCash: 1000	Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread. Watched Hagler-Watts I on youtube. I know this one is always touted as a huge screw job on Hagler but honestlyt, I saw it as a very close fight. Not what I would call a robbery at all. I did have Hagler winning 6 rounds to 4, but that's a close fight, and Hagler wasn't particularly effective in cutting off the ring on Watts, allowing him room to move and flurry quite a bit. This loss and the legend that's been built up around it as a travesty might be more a product of that whole persecution complex we know Hagler had, because I've seen many, many worse calls than this. Particularly being fought in Watts' hometown, I can't see much room for him to bitch about it. Good scrap though.
Top

12-30-2012, 06:56 PM	#2789
lora Fighting Zapata East Side Guru Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 5,453 vCash: 500	Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread. aye, i agree.Never thought Hagler Watts was a terrible robbery.Just a controversial decision 6-4 either way sort of bout.Hagler looked like a poor man's Kalule trying to get his shots off on the front-foot against the mobile Watts.
Top

12-31-2012, 09:31 AM	#2790
salsanchezfan Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Auburn, WA Posts: 6,895 vCash: 1000	Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread. Lora, your screen name reminded me I had never seen any Miguel Lora, despite being so entrenched in 80's fighters. His fights were never aired on TV, at least out west here. All I had to go on were some complimentary boxing magazine reports on his fights. Yesterday I watched the Avelar and Zaragoza matches. He was sensational against the seemingly timeless Avelar, who I know dated back quite a ways from there, so I would imagine he was pretty dilapidated by then, but from what I have seen of Avelar he'd be hard pressed to ever beat footwork like that anyway. Great movement from Lora, and he shows good power and strings punches together well. I could do without the "Hey, look at me; I'm Wilfredo Gomez" clowning which I saw in both fights, but he was certainly worth watching. Wish more of him was available. He was less effective, naturally, against a still young Zaragoza (he still had hair, that's how I know), but a lot of that may have been the southpaw adjustment showing, not sure. I thought Lora maybe loaded up a bit too much and was banking on a few big shots to carry the day for him when he could have chopped Zaragoza down a bit more methodically, but hard to fault the man for a title-winning effort.
Top