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Old 04-03-2013, 01:46 PM   #3511
Lester1583
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Default Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

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Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Robbed against Leonard, McCallum and Graham but Moore won fair 'n' square.
Moore indeed troubled Kalule a bit.

But just because Kalule was as always an overwhelming favourite to win by a first round knockout and Moore performed slightly better than expected doesn't mean Moore deserved to win the fight.

Kalule is everybody's favourite and some people consider him a personal hero so I can understand your frustration
but let's not go overboard here.

Calm down, Flea.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:52 PM   #3512
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Default Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

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OK guys I'm softening my stance on official results, I feel they are more important than I previously considered.

Basically I would hold my own card above the result no matter how close, now I think if it can be scored for the man who got the official nod, the result should stand.

This is my list of controversial fights I've scored over the past and felt were worth keeping for future discussion.

If anyone can be ****d helping me out here, I'd like to know which should be in the category of "robbery" and which should be in the category of "official result is feasible"

....

Adamek L12 Cunningham (u)
Adamek L12 Chambers (u)

Ali L15 Norton (u)
Ali W15 Young (o)

Alexander L12 Kotelnik (u)
Alexander L12 Matthyse (u)

Antuofermo L15 Hagler (u)

Barrera L12 Morales 2 (u)
Barrera L12 Marquez (o)

Basilio W15 Saxton 1 (u)

Bowe L12 Holyfield 2 (o)

Byrd W12 oquendo (o)
Byrd D12 Golotan (o)
Byrd W12 McCline (o)

Castillo L12 Mayweather (o)

Camacho L12 Mancini (close)
Camacho L12 Rosario (close)
Camacho L10 Duran 1 (close)

Casamayor W12 Corrales (u)

Charles L10 Johnson (o)

Cunningham W12 Wlodarczyk (u)

Darchinyan W12 Mares (u)

De la Hoya W12 Quartey (o)
De la hoya W12 Mosley 2 (u)
De la hoya W12 Trinidad (u)
De la hoya L12 Sturm (u)

Diaz L12 Malignaggi (u)

Eubank L12 Benn 2 (u)

Esparagoza L12 Villasana (close)

Freitas W12 Casamayor (o)

Foreman L12 Briggs (o)
Foreman D12 Schulz (u)

Foster L15 Ahumada (u)

Froch L12 Kessler (o)
Froch W12 Dirrell (o)

Garcia L10 Armstrong (close)

Griffith L15 Rodriguez 3 (u)

Hagler L12 Leonard (o)

Harada W15 Kingpetch (close)

Hernandez W12 Ross (o)

Holyfield L12 Lewis 1 (u)
Holyfield L12 Moorer (o)

Holmes W12 Witherspoon (o)
Holmes W15 Williams (o)
Holmes L15 Spinks 1 (o)

Hopkins L12 Taylor 1 (o)
Hopkins W12 Mercado (u)
Hopkins L12 Calzaghe (o)

Huck D12 Afolabi 1 (u)
Huck D12 Afolabi 2 (o)
Huck D12 Arslan (u)
Huck W12 Lebedev (o)

Judah L12 Matthyse (u)

Leonard L12 Hearns 2 (u)

Martinez W12 Cintron (u)
Martinez W12 Williams 1 (u)

Marquez W12 John (u)
Marquez W12 Pac 1 (u)
Marquez L12 Pac 2 (o)

Morales L12 Barrera 1 (u)
Morales L12 Barrera 3 (o)

Mullings D12 Castillejo (u)

Nelson L12 Fenech 1 (u)

Norton W15 Young (o)
Norton L15 Holmes (o)

Norwood L12 Marquez (u)

Ottke L12 Reid (u)
Ottke L12 Mitchell (u)

Pacquiao L12 Marquez 3 (u)
Pacquiao W12 Bradley (u)

Pascal L12 Hopkins 1 (u)

Pedroza W15 Taylor (o)

Peter L12 Toney 1 (u)

Povetkin W12 Huck (o)

Ramirez L12 Whittaker 1 (u)

Randall W5 Chavez (u)

Rosario W12 Camacho (close)

Ruiz W12 Valuev 1 (u)
Ruiz L12 Golota (u)

Shibata L15 Marcel (u)

Spinks L15 Holmes 2 (u)

starling W12 Breland 1 (u)

Tarver W12 Johnson 1 (u)

Taylor D12 Hopkins 2 (u)

Toney L12 Tiberi (u)
Toney W12 McCallum 1 (o)
Toney L12 McCallum 2 (u)
Toney W12 Johnson (o)
Toney W12 Thadzi (u)

Tua L12 Rahman 2 (u)

Valuev L12 Holyfield (u)

Whittaker W12 Chavez (u)
Whittaker L12 De La Hoya (o)

Williams L12 Lara (u)

Wright W12 Vargas (u)

Zarate W15 Pintor (u)
o - official result matches
u - official result doesn't.

the one's without o/u I need to rewatch to be sure. The one's with "u" are where the result is unofficial and I need to see if the official result is reasonable or not.
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:33 PM   #3513
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Default Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

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I think we all can agree that barring a notoriously controversial Gregory fight Kalule basically finished his career as an undefeated phenom.

Never beaten at his peak.

A true legend of featherfisted counterpunching.
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:47 PM   #3514
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Default Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

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Never beaten at his peak.

A true legend of featherfisted counterpunching.
Tell Jimmy Price that!
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:56 PM   #3515
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Default Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

Having rewatched Archie Moore.

Richards/Hennebery footage (1940) is too brief - most likely Moore was green/not matured physically yet.

Oakland Billy fight is the only film of prime Moore we have - he looks faster, better reflexes, more mobile than in the championship-days footage.

I'd say his prime/decline resembles Hop's career trajectory - peaked a bit later than his contemporaries/very gradual decline cuz of skills-oriented style.

Davidson/Slade/Maxim fights are Moore's Trinidad-era performances - still a great fighter but a lesser fighter physically.


By the way, Moore's slightly looping sneaky overhand right he threw against Maxim reminds of 90's Foreman's awkward-looking right hand he threw from a distance versus ****ey (the one that preceded an uppercut that initially hurt ****ey) or Holyfield.

Last edited by Lester1583; 04-03-2013 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:40 PM   #3516
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Default Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

Shibata was 70s asian boxing's prototype chong-pal park.

Talented well-balanced reflexive fighter, nice combos, good speed and some solid fundamentals...a nice feel for slipping punches and staying in range...but he just didn't have a good reliable chin and often fought like he knew it.

then other times he'd just get outright mangled.
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Old 04-03-2013, 04:42 PM   #3517
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Default Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lora View Post
Never beaten at his peak.

A true legend of featherfisted counterpunching.
True on both counts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlFrancis View Post
Tell Jimmy Price that!


Quote:
Originally Posted by orriray59 View Post
Escalera-Shibata.

Shibata immediately comes out aggressively against the jabbing Escalera. Alfredo looks to maintain distance and circle in the opening seconds, popping that rapier-like jab of his. Lots of nice feinting going on by both men.

Shibata manages to land some clean blows on Escalera over the course of the first round, whilst Alfredo continues to feel Kuniaki out. The first round was clearly for Shibata, in my opinion. Landed a nice right hand squarely near the end of the round.
Escalera begins the second stanza appearing more energetic and vigorous, going on the offensive before trading with Shibata. Kuniaki gets the best of it in that little skirmish.

Both of these men are well schooled. Shibata's head movement is lovely and Escalera is constantly balanced. Kuniaki knows that jab is coming and slips it over and over again, perhaps falling into a slight pattern? Escalera setting him up for something later on in the round? Shibata clearly winning the second round, also, up to this point.
Then Escalera catches him and batters Kuniaki to the canvas, swinging away wildly.

Shibata seems dead. KO2.
In Shibata's defence, and it's pointless as he was wasted throughout his career (by punchers mind you and boy I'd love to see The Dwight Hawkins Massacre) but Kuniaki was at the end.

He was an undersized super feather as well, even same day. If The Snake Man wasn't enough check out the size disparity against Ben Villaflor the Filipino monster. And check out the scary K.O in their rematch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lora View Post
Shibata was 70s asian boxing's prototype chong-pal park.

Talented well-balanced reflexive fighter, nice combos, good speed and some solid fundamentals...a nice feel for slipping punches and staying in range...but he just didn't have a good reliable chin and often fought like he knew it.

then other times he'd just get outright mangled.
Weird fighter though. Sometimes gave up when he could've carried on, then again Escalera he rallies very briefly before getting blasted. Against Marcel he resigned to losing but took his drubbing.

Great feet and a fantastic left hand. Had some quality wins in there amongst the mortifying losses. Better than Park for sure but I get the comparison.

You ever seen that Mexican fella (who starched Shibata, saw him resurrected only to pitifully flop again) get pasted by Legra?
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Old 04-03-2013, 05:13 PM   #3518
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Default Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

Clemente Sanchez...nah, get it uploaded.

11 knockdowns was it


Got to say i always thought Shibata's jab was notably poor and innacurate, almost like he was afraid to properly use it as anytthing other than a quick rang-finder.he did have a quality hook though.

For me, him and Park were about on par overall.I dig Park though, so that's not so bad.
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Old 04-03-2013, 05:31 PM   #3519
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Default Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

Yeah the jab was like a fencing type thing, but he hooked off it well and it added up to a solid one handed fighter when he was in full flow (mind you against Raul Cruz he shows he has that two-fisted Japanese kamikaze in him, brutal that) although he was the kinda' guy who baited and waited at mid-range, and either slipped and threw the left or stepped back, reset and waited again. The first Villaflor fight is especially painful viewing as big Ben doesn't throw a punch for 13 rounds

And woe is me I don't have Sanchez-Legra. Was hoping you'd have seen it over the years.

Seriously though you gotta' sort it out. I am DESPERATE for Canto-Park II and Berkrek-Filipino Ebihara conquerer I can't currently remember the name of...Villecampo?

I know in your Trebus-esque hoard of old burnt discs you have these fights, even in scatty Kudo-quality.
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Old 04-04-2013, 01:55 PM   #3520
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Default Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

Moore-Pompey makes 90's Foreman look like Ray Leonard.

Unbelievable speed.

Last edited by Lester1583; 04-04-2013 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 04-04-2013, 02:31 PM   #3521
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Default Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

Ali v Norton 3

I would post my scorecard but I lost track of the round numbers because they weren't showing the rounds and I had the volume off cos my gran was watching the chase.

Ali has the far superior jab and footwork and he basically won rounds on that alone until Norton stepped up the pace with his great body work. I'm sure I've seen this many times before and never thought it possible that Ali could have won.

1, 3, 4, 15 were definite rounds i could have given Ali. I also thought i scored 7, 9, 10 and 11 for him but those numbers are wrong because i turned the volume up a bit during what i thought was round 13 and it was actually round 15 so at some point i lost track.

Either was this is an exceptionally close fight and the claims of robbery are a bit extreme. I was probably one of those making that claim but i take it back.

For me a robbery is only a robbery if the official result isn't plausible and this fight does have enough rounds that can be scored for Ali to justify his victory.

Really good fight, both had bad intentions in the right hand and the switches from Ali out jabbing to Norton punishing his body were a delight to see.

Basically when i used to harp on about Ali being a paper champ after manilla i was being a ****. He was clearly a declined force but was still doing enough to beat the top contenders. And yes i am including young, Norton and shavers in that.
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:11 PM   #3522
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Default Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

Score the ultra controversial split decision in Wilfredo Vasquez Sr Vs Khaokor.
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Old 04-04-2013, 05:00 PM   #3523
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Default Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

I'll give it a shot.

I'm gonna watch some more Camacho and Villasana as well. Maybe even the mab-Morales trilogy.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:56 AM   #3524
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Default Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

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Ali v Norton 3

I would post my scorecard but I lost track of the round numbers because they weren't showing the rounds and I had the volume off cos my gran was watching the chase.

Ali has the far superior jab and footwork and he basically won rounds on that alone until Norton stepped up the pace with his great body work. I'm sure I've seen this many times before and never thought it possible that Ali could have won.

1, 3, 4, 15 were definite rounds i could have given Ali. I also thought i scored 7, 9, 10 and 11 for him but those numbers are wrong because i turned the volume up a bit during what i thought was round 13 and it was actually round 15 so at some point i lost track.

Either was this is an exceptionally close fight and the claims of robbery are a bit extreme. I was probably one of those making that claim but i take it back.

For me a robbery is only a robbery if the official result isn't plausible and this fight does have enough rounds that can be scored for Ali to justify his victory.

Really good fight, both had bad intentions in the right hand and the switches from Ali out jabbing to Norton punishing his body were a delight to see.

Basically when i used to harp on about Ali being a paper champ after manilla i was being a ****. He was clearly a declined force but was still doing enough to beat the top contenders. And yes i am including young, Norton and shavers in that.
I feel the same way. Norton probably won, as did young, but it was dammed close. I think it's a testament to Alis greatness that will past his prime, and starting to site effects of illness, he was still a match for any top 10 guy.
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Old 04-05-2013, 06:37 AM   #3525
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Default Re: the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

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I feel the same way. Norton probably won, as did young, but it was dammed close. I think it's a testament to Alis greatness that will past his prime, and starting to site effects of illness, he was still a match for any top 10 guy.
Yeah I reckon if you were to take a poll of everyone who's seen Young and Norton 3, more people would vote for them as winners but enough would still pick Ali and that's kinda my point.

I can see Ali winning both fights and hence neither are really robberies.
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