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Old 11-26-2009, 10:13 PM   #46
sweet_scientist
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Default Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great

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Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
Interesting. They all make my top hundred. Infact, at least a couple of them make the top seventy.

I mean, you won't catch me rating Carlos Palomino or Jose Luis Ramirez over these four.
I wouldn't put those two above them either. Might post my top 100 here later.
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Old 11-26-2009, 10:56 PM   #47
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Default Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great

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Too high for me. If I were to rate Gavilan at 15, I'd have to rate Jose Napoles at about #11, and Ike Williams at #14 or #16.
Ike Williams is at 14 for me incidentally.

I just think Kid Gavilan gets underrated when it comes to all time lists. He has a marvelous resume and he was quite dominant at the peak of his prime too.

Guys he beat include:

Carmen Basilio
Ike Williams x 2
Beau Jack
Billy Graham x 3
Bobby ****s
Gil Turner
Chuck Davey
Eduardo Lausse
Johnny Bratton x 3
Fritzie Pruden x 2
Laurent Dauthille
Rocky Castellani
Tony Janiro x 2
Gene Hairston
Ramon Fuentes
Paddy Young
Tony Pellone
Gaspar Ortega
Walter Cartier
Don Williams
Ralph Tiger Jones x 2
Italo Scortichini
Bee Bee Wright

When it comes to his losses he was robbed against Lester Felton, Robert Villemain, George Costner, Tommy Ciarlo, Gene Hairston, Billy Graham and Johnny Saxton and he arguably should have won the fight he lost to Ike Williams and numerous others at the twilight of his career.

Clearly a better resume than Barney Ross' for mine.

I don't rank guys on how they look on film or h2h ability as far as my p4p list goes, but if I did, that would only make me want to put Kid Gavilan even higher than I rank him now. One of the best fighters ever on film for me.

Last edited by sweet_scientist; 11-27-2009 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 11-27-2009, 12:55 AM   #48
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Default Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great

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Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post

did anyone notice he is somewhat like reggie johnson...
No.

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Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
well , reggie johnsons opposition is more impressing :
Roy Jones
James Toney
Antonio Tarver
Steve Collins
Jorge Fernando Castro X2
John David Jackson
Julio Cesar Gonzalez
Lamar Parks
Sanderline Williams
Ralph Ward
That list stopped being impressive when you got to the third name.

Besides, Johnson lost to the top three on that list (two very decisively) so it's a moot point anyway.


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Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
the other reason is simply because :
Sam Langford
Manny Pacquiao
David Tua
James Toney
Mike Tyson
Rocky Marciano
Dwight Braxton
Roberto Duran
Ray Leonard


are 10 fighters...
But only 3 or 4 of them warrant a place over Ross.

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Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
one should think remind consider and remember before he declares a ranking for someone.
And I'm sure Manassa thought, reminded, considered, and remembered that Ross held three world titles simultaneously, beat a whole slew of quality fighters and HOFers, and lost a mere four times (and was never stopped) in more than 80 fights.
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Old 11-27-2009, 12:56 AM   #49
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Default Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great

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Originally Posted by sweet_scientist View Post

I just think Kid Gavilan gets underrated when it comes to all time lists. He has a marvelous resume and he was quite dominant at the peak of his prime too.

Guys he beat include:

Carmen Basilio
Ike Williams x 2
Beau Jack
Billy Graham x 3
Bobby ****s
Gil Turner
Chuck Davey
Eduardo Lausse
Johnny Bratton x 3
Fritzie Pruden x 2
Laurent Dauthille
Rocky Castellani
Tony Janiro x 2
Gene Hairston
Ramon Fuentes
Paddy Young
Tony Pellone
Gaspar Ortega
Walter Cartier
Don Williams
Ralph Tiger Jones x 2
Italo Scotichini
Bee Bee Wright

When it comes to his losses he was robbed against Lester Felton, Robert Villemain, George Costner, Tommy Ciarlo, Gene Hairston, Billy Graham and Johnny Saxton and he arguably should have won the fighs he lost to Ike Williams and numerous others at the twilight of his career.

Clearly a better resume than Barney Ross' for mine.

I don't rank guys on how they look on film or h2h ability as far as my p4p list goes, but if I did, that would only make me want to put Kid Gavilan even higher than I rank him now. One of the best fighters ever on film for me.
I've always been hugely impressed with Gavilan and enjoy very much watching him on film; in fact, he's probably one of my favorite fighters to watch. I rate him among the top 5 all time welters and I would favor him against almost any welter except Robinson and maybe one or two others. In a P4P sense though, I think his legacy does suffer a bit from his relatively high number of losses (even if many of them were close/controversial) and his failure to win a second world title in his superfight with Bobo Olson (although that was another close/controversial decision).
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Old 11-27-2009, 09:42 AM   #50
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Default Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great

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I've always been hugely impressed with Gavilan and enjoy very much watching him on film; in fact, he's probably one of my favorite fighters to watch. I rate him among the top 5 all time welters and I would favor him against almost any welter except Robinson and maybe one or two others. In a P4P sense though, I think his legacy does suffer a bit from his relatively high number of losses (even if many of them were close/controversial) and his failure to win a second world title in his superfight with Bobo Olson (although that was another close/controversial decision).
At welterweight Gavilan was a great fighter and I'd only take Robinson with any confidence to beat him. Leonard might, Hearns might, Napoles might, Rodriguez might, but I don't think I'd have those fights at anything above 50/50. At middleweight he was not so much of a great fighter. But that said, with regards to the Bobo Olson fight, Gavilan came into that fight with an injured right hand (which accounted for why Olson was a 2-1 favourite leading up to the fight) and he only used it to launch soft, short-range punches on the inside. Even still, he pretty much held his own (and off the 12 min. footage I've seen of the fight seems to have an edge) against a good middleweight with one hand. That 'loss' adds to his legacy as far as I'm concerned. There's no question Gavilan takes it if he had two good hands.

About all the losses he has, I tend to dismiss a lot of them because they were outright robberies. The Johnny Saxton decision for instance is a joke of a decision.
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Old 11-27-2009, 10:30 AM   #51
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Default Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great

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Originally Posted by sweet_scientist View Post
At welterweight Gavilan was a great fighter and I'd only take Robinson with any confidence to beat him.

I feel like this aswell sometimes. You know i've got this Burley fetish, but that aside, I sometimes wonder if KG isn't #2 head to head. I'd love a sentence on what you think he'd do with the following -

Hearns (think we talked about this before, and you liked Hearns big but I disagreed?)

Mickey Walker

Napoles
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Old 11-27-2009, 10:34 AM   #52
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Default Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great

For me, Gavilan wins at least one in a series of 3 with ANYBODY (bar Robinson, for obvious reasons, but thats because Sugar Ray was THAT good)

Anyone who is terrible for the Kid stylistically?
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Old 11-27-2009, 10:36 AM   #53
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Default Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great

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Anyone who is terrible for the Kid stylistically?

I suspect SS is about to tell you that Hearns is.
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Old 11-27-2009, 10:41 AM   #54
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Default Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great

I also feel he's a damn underrated puncher, he would score a lot more stoppages nowadays. *(IMO)
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Old 11-27-2009, 10:46 AM   #55
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Default Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great

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I suspect SS is about to tell you that Hearns is.
Totally understandable mind, he's a H2H beast is the Motor City Cobra
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Old 11-27-2009, 10:57 AM   #56
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Default Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
I feel like this aswell sometimes. You know i've got this Burley fetish, but that aside, I sometimes wonder if KG isn't #2 head to head. I'd love a sentence on what you think he'd do with the following -

Hearns (think we talked about this before, and you liked Hearns big but I disagreed?)

Mickey Walker

Napoles
I vaguely remember the Hearns-Gavilan talks we had and I do remember favouring Hearns, mostly because I felt Gavilan didn't punch hard enough to knock him out and Tommy is such a hard man to outbox and earn a decision off.

Nowadays I'm undecided. What's changed? Well, watching a bit more of Gavilan fight I'd say. In particular the Gil Turner fight stands out in my mind. That fight (for those that haven't seen it) for me displays the most hellish exchanges I think I have ever seen in the ring - if not the most then it's way, way up there. Both guys tee off on each other and Gavilan ends it by knocking Gil Turner out. Turner was a phenom leading up to the bout and you can see the man's talent in the Gavilan fight. He's a welterweight Meldrick Taylor. What I gained from looking at that fight are the following two points: 1. Gavilan has a GREAT chin and 2. He can stand and trade at a high pace and tire a man out before knocking him out.

So, bringing it back to the Hearns discussion, I now feel that if Gavilan can trade enough with Hearns and tire him out, has a good chance of overwhelming him late in the fight.

Now Tommy is a much bigger puncher than Turner, that's a given, but Gavilan has also faced harder punchers than Turner himself and lived to tell the tale (e.g. Lausse, Robinson), and if he can take the avalanche of shots Tommy will bring down on him and work him to the point where Tommy tires, then he could take him out late. It is also said that he managed to stand his ground with Robinson and make Ray weary of throwing shots, which is some feat, so he could perhaps do it here too.

If the bout goes the distance, I still like Hearns.

Against Napoles I think it could go either way. Two ultra skilled guys (Napoles a better puncher, Gavilan a little quicker) and I'd probably only give the slight edge to Kid for being the more resilient (well, as far as skin goes anyway). I can see Gavilan marking Napoles up pretty bad with his slashing punches which would force a stoppage once or twice if they fought 10 times, which would give Kid the edge in a series betwen them.

Against Walker, I like Kid's skills and toughness to see him home, in a bout somewhat similar to the Basilio fight, but perhaps at a slightly higher level of intensity (Gavilan was a little on the wane by then, though not by much).
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Old 11-27-2009, 11:02 AM   #57
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Default Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great

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For me, Gavilan wins at least one in a series of 3 with ANYBODY (bar Robinson, for obvious reasons, but thats because Sugar Ray was THAT good)

Anyone who is terrible for the Kid stylistically?
Gavilan is so diverse there's not many that he would be stylistically weak against but yeah Hearns would probably be my choice. I don't see Gavilan being out of his depth with any welter though really, even though some might nick a decision off him.
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Old 11-27-2009, 11:04 AM   #58
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Default Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great

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I also feel he's a damn underrated puncher, he would score a lot more stoppages nowadays. *(IMO)
Yeah, an area I've underrated him in, in the past.
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Old 11-27-2009, 11:04 AM   #59
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Default Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great

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I vaguely remember the Hearns-Gavilan talks we had and I do remember favouring Hearns, mostly because I felt Gavilan didn't punch hard enough to knock him out and Tommy is such a hard man to outbox and earn a decision off.

Nowadays I'm undecided. What's changed? Well, watching a bit more of Gavilan fight I'd say. In particular the Gil Turner fight stands out in my mind. That fight (for those that haven't seen it) for me displays the most hellish exchanges I think I have ever seen in the ring - if not the most then it's way, way up there. Both guys tee off on each other and Gavilan ends it by knocking Gil Turner out. Turner was a phenom leading up to the bout and you can see the man's talent in the Gavilan fight. He's a welterweight Meldrick Taylor. What I gained from looking at that fight are the following two points: 1. Gavilan has a GREAT chin and 2. He can stand and trade at a high pace and tire a man out before knocking him out.

So, bringing it back to the Hearns discussion, I now feel that if Gavilan can trade enough with Hearns and tire him out, has a good chance of overwhelming him late in the fight.

Now Tommy is a much bigger puncher than Turner, that's a given, but Gavilan has also faced harder punchers than Turner himself and lived to tell the tale (e.g. Lausse, Robinson), and if he can take the avalanche of shots Tommy will bring down on him and work him to the point where Tommy tires, then he could take him out late. It is also said that he managed to stand his ground with Robinson and make Ray weary of throwing shots, which is some feat, so he could perhaps do it here too.

If the bout goes the distance, I still like Hearns.

Against Napoles I think it could go either way. Two ultra skilled guys (Napoles a better puncher, Gavilan a little quicker) and I'd probably only give the slight edge to Kid for being the more resilient (well, as far as skin goes anyway). I can see Gavilan marking Napoles up pretty bad with his slashing punches which would force a stoppage once or twice if they fought 10 times, which would give Kid the edge in a series betwen them.

Against Walker, I like Kid's skills and toughness to see him home, in a bout somewhat similar to the Basilio fight, but perhaps at a slightly higher level of intensity (Gavilan was a little on the wane by then, though not by much).

Very good post and I agree on all counts.

You could have cut it short by saying "you were right about Hearns-KG" though
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Old 11-27-2009, 11:04 AM   #60
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Default Re: Barney Ross is a top ten all-time great

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.... Jack Caroll... Anyone know the story about old Jack... ?? Barney knew about Carroll.. Just as well a fight was never to materialise.
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