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Old 12-05-2009, 02:25 PM   #31
Tin_Ribs
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Default Re: Who is the greatest British super-middleweight since the division started ?

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Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
At middleweight, I rate Watson above Eubank and Benn.

But his one fight at super-middleweight (a LOSS) was epic and tragic, and while he put up and absolutely magnifcent effort, rating him off of that would be a bit wrong, IMO.
I'm not rating him off of it. Just an observation. Nearly everybody thought he won the first fight too as well as having already knocked out Benn. The actual knockout loss against CE should be no reason to discount the previous 10 and half rounds where Eubank was being completely outclassed, though it serves as a testament to Eubank's determination and very underrated punching power that he came through when it mattered.

Watson's career is an odd one. He was still very green when he beat Benn and was subsequently thrown in too deep against McCallum too early in his career. He gave a magnificent effort and made McCallum work every second for victory, but it was a crushing defeat. That version of McCallum was better than anybody Benn, Eubank, Toney, Hopkins or Jones ever beat at middle or super middle, even if Watson did lose. Still, he recovered and was beginning to hit his peak round about the time of the Eubank tragedy.There was more to come from him, even if he never would have beaten Jones or Calzaghe. Of course it's speculation, but so what?

Regardless, Calzaghe is the greatest career super middle by a clear margin, even if you want to say that Jones was 'better' in a head to head sense which he probably was.

And the person who said that McClellan had a shot at beating Jones needs to clear the sleep from his eyes.
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Old 12-05-2009, 02:57 PM   #32
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Default Re: Who is the greatest British super-middleweight since the division started ?

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So what ? Watson lost the fight. And lost it very conclusively and very very badly.
That bat-out-of-hell shot did land and was not only the story of the fight, but far more than that too, unfortunately.



....... but in the real world, what actually happened was about as far from that scenario as you could possible imagine.


Kindest thanks for the patronising tone Professor and for bringing me up to scratch on something I NEVER would have seen with my own two perfectly functioning eyes were it not for your wisdom. I was just making an observation of potential events that has a more than valid basis to it, not disputing what happened in the real world.

Watson was giving Eubank an arse kicking until he got stopped by a massive shot.
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Old 12-05-2009, 07:58 PM   #33
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Default Re: Who is the greatest British super-middleweight since the division started ?

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Originally Posted by Mantequilla View Post
Wharton is underrated a bit.Not my kind of fighter, but he'd do really well were he around today.

Very good chin, great power and terrific left-hook.His offensive skills were good, with a heavy sharp jab and some tidy combinations..triple left hooks, doubling up on the right hand etc..

Also a one-paced plodder that looked far less impressive against anyone using a lot of lateral movement, but still....I'd have bet on him wrecking Froch, LAcy or Taylor.

I thought the Eubank fight took a lot out of him though.Eubank was really sharp that night, despite the weight issues he was having by that time.Some great counterpunching from him in it.




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wharton...wow i remember about 3 years looking at everyfight he had good left hooker made benn piss blood for days
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Old 12-05-2009, 08:17 PM   #34
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Default Re: Who is the greatest British super-middleweight since the division started ?

Can't think of too many Brit SMW's honestly.

Anyone remember Crawford Ashley? Power punching Brit with huge dreadlocked hair at one point.

He fought Nunn at SMW... He was also the first man to beat Carl Thompson as well and we know what Thompson went on to do all the way up to Cruiser against Eubank and Haye.

Also took Johnny Nelson and Graciano Rocchigiani to the edge, I believe he would of had a draw with Rocchigiana if not for a deducted point.

Not too bad.
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Old 12-05-2009, 11:08 PM   #35
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Default Re: Who is the greatest British super-middleweight since the division started ?

Nigel Benn is definitely my favourite but Calzaghe is the best.
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Old 12-06-2009, 05:52 AM   #36
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Default Re: Who is the greatest British super-middleweight since the division started ?

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GPater not being a trying to pee you off but conn was beating louis a loss is a loss .watson was a good fighter but like herol graham was a nearly man at world level
yeh i get where your coming from but Watson showed superb skills that night and looked an excellant fighter. But in the end he did lose so its a hard one because he was winning for 10 rounds so do we just disregard that? It wasnt as though he was just winning he was dominating. Its a tough one to call.

Conn wasnt winning as widely as Watson , also Conn maybe not by us boxing nerds but some fans think he was brillaint because he was beating Louis till he started trading (utter BS) and you cant just disregard the fact that he gave Louis, one of the greatest Heavyweights ever, a close run.

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Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
He lost the fight, his only title fight at super-middle.
Eubank was the better fighter on the night.



His brain was bashed in.
Bashed, (pummelled, hammered or simply punched if you prefer) by another man's fists hard enough so that a blood vessel was torn and cause massive bleeding, resulting in massive blod clot, that eventually needed 6 surgeries and left him in a vegitative condition.
That's the reality.

You're happy to laud the his fine boxing skills that night, so try not to get offended by (what I think is) a fair shorthand description of the end result. I think that's a little hypocritical, or at least shying away from the brutal reality.
fair enough, least your blunt about it.

Just thought it was slightly in bad taste seeing what happened to him.

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Originally Posted by es***boy View Post
It wasnt the punch though was it? The damage was caused by his head hitting the bottom rope. I certainly wouldnt say Watson should be rated higher than Calzaghe, Benn and Eubank at super-middle as they clearly achieved more but without this terrible stroke of fate he would have been the best, I think we should be allowed to speculate.
but should it have any effect on ranking?
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Old 12-06-2009, 06:08 AM   #37
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Default Re: Who is the greatest British super-middleweight since the division started ?

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Originally Posted by Russell View Post
Can't think of too many Brit SMW's honestly.

Anyone remember Crawford Ashley? Power punching Brit with huge dreadlocked hair at one point.

He fought Nunn at SMW... He was also the first man to beat Carl Thompson as well and we know what Thompson went on to do all the way up to Cruiser against Eubank and Haye.

Also took Johnny Nelson and Graciano Rocchigiani to the edge, I believe he would of had a draw with Rocchigiana if not for a deducted point.

Not too bad.
crawford ashley was really drained at 168lb
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Old 12-06-2009, 09:19 AM   #38
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Default Re: Who is the greatest British super-middleweight since the division started ?

EubankWatson 2 wasn't THAT one-sided.It only really got that way when Watson's plan came to fruition over the last two rounds.Eubank's often dodgy stamina came into play and he gassed.Before that it was a high quality technical fight with a lot of back and forth success.

I had it even after about 7 rounds, with Watson winning every round after that, but most of them were still quite close.eubankjust couldn't cope with the pace.Unusually for me with Eubank fights, my take mirrored the commentary on this one.
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Old 12-06-2009, 09:24 AM   #39
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Default Re: Who is the greatest British super-middleweight since the division started ?

oops , sorry , didn't notice the title
1. Joe Calzaghe
2. Chris Eubanks
3. Carl Froch
4. Michael Watson
5. Robin Reid

Last edited by frankenfrank; 12-06-2009 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 12-06-2009, 10:00 AM   #40
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Default Re: Who is the greatest British super-middleweight since the division started ?

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Originally Posted by Tin_Ribs View Post
I'm not rating him off of it. Just an observation. Nearly everybody thought he won the first fight too as well as having already knocked out Benn. The actual knockout loss against CE should be no reason to discount the previous 10 and half rounds where Eubank was being completely outclassed, though it serves as a testament to Eubank's determination and very underrated punching power that he came through when it mattered.

Watson's career is an odd one. He was still very green when he beat Benn and was subsequently thrown in too deep against McCallum too early in his career. He gave a magnificent effort and made McCallum work every second for victory, but it was a crushing defeat. That version of McCallum was better than anybody Benn, Eubank, Toney, Hopkins or Jones ever beat at middle or super middle, even if Watson did lose. Still, he recovered and was beginning to hit his peak round about the time of the Eubank tragedy.There was more to come from him, even if he never would have beaten Jones or Calzaghe. Of course it's speculation, but so what?

Regardless, Calzaghe is the greatest career super middle by a clear margin, even if you want to say that Jones was 'better' in a head to head sense which he probably was.

And the person who said that McClellan had a shot at beating Jones needs to clear the sleep from his eyes.
I had Eubank beating Watson, it was close but many had it to Eubank and it isnt the robbery people make it out to be. The rematch Watson certainly gained the upper hand but Eubank had good moments early before Eubank turned it round

Who's to say McCallum was the best opponent anyone faced. What about the Toney/Hopkins Jones faced or the McClellan Benn faced

As for Calzaghe having the greatest SMW career, its debatable as he has no excellent opponents on his ledger, mainly past it fighters, and a few B Class 1s and loads of bums

And yes I think McClellan has a shot against Jones with his fast right hand, and Im a Jones nuthugger, Id pick Jones but GMAN is a big threat

Sorry looks like we disagree on allot
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Old 12-06-2009, 10:41 AM   #41
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Default Re: Who is the greatest British super-middleweight since the division started ?

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Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
these are to consider :
h2h :
1. roy jones
2. james toney
3. faded mccallum
4. steve collins
5. chris eubanks
6. joe calzaghe
7. frankie liles
8. steve little
9. michael nunn
10 . arthur abraham (he will win the super6 not that it will really mean too much)
how many of these are brits frankenfrank (thread tittle)
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Old 12-06-2009, 10:49 AM   #42
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Default Re: Who is the greatest British super-middleweight since the division started ?

[quote=GPater11093;5586406]yeh i get where your coming from but Watson showed superb skills that night and looked an excellant fighter. But in the end he did lose so its a hard one because he was winning for 10 rounds so do we just disregard that? It wasnt as though he was just winning he was dominating. Its a tough one to call.

Conn wasnt winning as widely as Watson , also Conn maybe not by us boxing nerds but some fans think he was brillaint because he was beating Louis till he started trading (utter BS) and you cant just disregard the fact that he gave Louis, one of the greatest Heavyweights ever, a close run.





personally pater i cant remember scoring the fight but thought louis was behind but you are right though watson was far ahead against eubank until he got ko'd
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Old 12-06-2009, 12:08 PM   #43
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Default Re: Who is the greatest British super-middleweight since the division started ?

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Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
oops , sorry , didn't notice the title
1. steve collins
2. Joe calzaghe
3. Chris eubanks
4. Carl froch
5. Robin reid
irish!
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Old 12-06-2009, 12:18 PM   #44
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Default Re: Who is the greatest British super-middleweight since the division started ?

Eubank.....1,5,6
Watson.... 2,4,7,8,9.10,11

round 3 even

that was my card.eubank needed the KO, after an even first half.The key in this fight other than Watson upping the pace, workrate and variety of his initial effort, was that he seemed to have dialed in that short right hand to Eubank's defensive style.He drropped it down from a high short angle, very effectively whenever Eubank would go into those Zapata-esque leaning in crouches to counter the approaching Watson.
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Old 12-15-2009, 02:42 AM   #45
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Default Re: Who is the greatest British super-middleweight since the division started ?

Eubank had so many big fights, big wars.

Watson II, Benn II, Collins II, Rocchigiani, Calzaghe, Wharton.

He was centre stage with the big fights, came out a winner of the big wars even if not directly.

Has to be him
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