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Old 12-04-2009, 01:14 PM   #1
Popkins
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Default Is James Toney a top 10 OAT middleweight in h2h terms? Or top 15? 20?

Considering the best mw version of Toney, the man from 1991 who turned the fight around against Nunn and stopped him, and "drew" with Mike McCallum (I had Toney winning that one).

Right off the bat, we can say Monzon, Robinson and Hagler beat him IMO. No question.

Are there another 7 mw's from history you would definitely back to beat Toney? If so, does he make the top 15, or top 20?

And would you back 1997-2001 B-Hop to beat him?
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Old 12-04-2009, 01:22 PM   #2
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Default Re: Is James Toney a top 10 OAT middleweight in h2h terms? Or top 15? 20?

Burley, Walker, Jones, Tiger, Williams, Greb, LaMotta.
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Old 12-04-2009, 01:27 PM   #3
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Default Re: Is James Toney a top 10 OAT middleweight in h2h terms? Or top 15? 20?

I'll throw in Hopkins, Giardello, Archer, and Kalambay. Possibly Eddie Booker and Lloyd Marshall as well, if only there was footage of them at MW.
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Old 12-04-2009, 01:48 PM   #4
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Default Re: Is James Toney a top 10 OAT middleweight in h2h terms? Or top 15? 20?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Burley, Walker, Jones, Tiger, Williams, Greb, LaMotta.
Would you have him top 15 then, or top 20, or neither?

Also, how do you see a Tiger-Toney clash going?
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Old 12-04-2009, 01:50 PM   #5
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Default Re: Is James Toney a top 10 OAT middleweight in h2h terms? Or top 15? 20?

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea View Post
I'll throw in Hopkins, Giardello, Archer, and Kalambay. Possibly Eddie Booker and Lloyd Marshall as well, if only there was footage of them at MW.
Are you putting forward Giardello and Archer as suggestions, or do you have a firm conviction they would beat JT?

Also, same question as I asked McGrain amigo, would you place him in a top 15, a top 20, or do you think he doesn't make the cut at all?

Who do you think would win between Toney and Emile Griffith at mw?
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Old 12-04-2009, 02:00 PM   #6
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Default Re: Is James Toney a top 10 OAT middleweight in h2h terms? Or top 15? 20?

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Originally Posted by Popkins View Post
Would you have him top 15 then, or top 20, or neither?

Also, how do you see a Tiger-Toney clash going?

Things get very wooly when you step outside of the top tier, head to head. I'm not sure how I would rate James against the second crowd.

Tiger would just outwork him. He's a cagey counter-puncher himself, and much busier, plus you can't discourage him with punches. Tiger would just flat out win more rounds.
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Old 12-04-2009, 11:34 PM   #7
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Default Re: Is James Toney a top 10 OAT middleweight in h2h terms? Or top 15? 20?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popkins View Post
Are you putting forward Giardello and Archer as suggestions, or do you have a firm conviction they would beat JT?

Also, same question as I asked McGrain amigo, would you place him in a top 15, a top 20, or do you think he doesn't make the cut at all?

Who do you think would win between Toney and Emile Griffith at mw?
I know you didn't ask me Pops, but I thought you could use a well-earned break from the Pacquiao-Mayweather farce on the other thread.

I'm confident that Hopkins, Kalambay, Giardello and Archer would all win fairly clear decisions against Toney. All of em at their best have the style, intelligence, ring generalship and substance to negate his mid/inside countering game. I'd take the best Griffith to edge him as well, though Toney might fare better here against a more orthodox technician as he did against McCallum. To call Toney one dimensional is unfair to him considering the wonderful old school repertoire he had, but he was the type of great(ish) fighter that would have always struggled against certain styles for my money.

I've not got a top 20 middleweight list, but I don't think JT would be in it if I did; the division is too deep throughout it's history. Like RJJ, it's his weight jumping that gets him more credit in my book rather than dominance in one division.
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Old 12-05-2009, 04:43 AM   #8
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Default Re: Is James Toney a top 10 OAT middleweight in h2h terms? Or top 15? 20?

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Originally Posted by Tin_Ribs View Post
I know you didn't ask me Pops, but I thought you could use a well-earned break from the Pacquiao-Mayweather farce on the other thread.
I never need a break from taking out the proverbial trash on this website.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin_Ribs View Post
I'm confident that Hopkins, Kalambay, Giardello and Archer would all win fairly clear decisions against Toney. All of em at their best have the style, intelligence, ring generalship and substance to negate his mid/inside countering game. I'd take the best Griffith to edge him as well, though Toney might fare better here against a more orthodox technician as he did against McCallum. To call Toney one dimensional is unfair to him considering the wonderful old school repertoire he had, but he was the type of great(ish) fighter that would have always struggled against certain styles for my money.

I've not got a top 20 middleweight list, but I don't think JT would be in it if I did; the division is too deep throughout it's history. Like RJJ, it's his weight jumping that gets him more credit in my book rather than dominance in one division.
Cheers for your post mate, good calls. Although most wouldn't, I'd certainly pay to see Toney vs Griffith. I think it would be an intriguing match-up.
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Old 12-05-2009, 09:03 AM   #9
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Default Re: Is James Toney a top 10 OAT middleweight in h2h terms? Or top 15? 20?

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Originally Posted by Popkins View Post
I never need a break from taking out the proverbial trash on this website.



Cheers for your post mate, good calls. Although most wouldn't, I'd certainly pay to see Toney vs Griffith. I think it would be an intriguing match-up.
The McCallum/Toney scraps are among the best technical showcases I've ever seen, and a Griffith fight might be the same depending on their mindsets. Griff would most likely stick and move like he did for spells against Tiger IMO so that Toney wouldn't have too much to feed off (no pun intended).
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Old 12-06-2009, 10:05 AM   #10
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Default Re: Is James Toney a top 10 OAT middleweight in h2h terms? Or top 15? 20?

remember :
reggie johnson , david tiberi , mike mccallum , merqui sosa , sanderline williams
consider :
jorge fernando castro , sumbu kalambay , steve collins , steve little , roid jones , julian jackson , tony thornton
in h2h not a top 10 mw. top 20 yes. top 15 i don't know.
well : a try of a top 10 mw h2h list :
1. Sam Langford
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Ray Robinson
4. Carlos Monzon
5. Young Peter Jackson
6. Harry Greb
7. Gerald McClellan
8. Charley Burley
9. Rodrigo Valdez
10. Ray Leonard

it changes from time to time.
sometimes James Toney does manage to creep in.
he is not far from top10 h2h there.
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Old 12-06-2009, 01:24 PM   #11
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Default Re: Is James Toney a top 10 OAT middleweight in h2h terms? Or top 15? 20?

I would add Dave Tiberi to the list.

Oh that's right, he did beat him.
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Old 12-06-2009, 01:49 PM   #12
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Default Re: Is James Toney a top 10 OAT middleweight in h2h terms? Or top 15? 20?

I think Toney was very good at middleweight, but he didn't hit his best form until moving up to 168. Toney became one of the best counter punchers I've ever seen, due to his elusive movement and great accuracy. Too bad he hadn't quite put it all together at 160.
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Old 12-06-2009, 02:05 PM   #13
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Default Re: Is James Toney a top 10 OAT middleweight in h2h terms? Or top 15? 20?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Burley, Walker, Jones, Tiger, Williams, Greb, LaMotta.
I don't see why they'd be big favourates over him, the likes of Greb/Tiger/Lamotta don't have a height advantage, which most men would and may get counter silly on the way to dropping UDs, although Grebs speed/workrate may edge it to him. I certainly think Toney looks better on film than Walker and Williams lack of power would be taken advantage of by Toney. Burley too would have a size disadvantage

Aside from Jones all are probably close decisions, some may go either way with people arguing over the result
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Old 12-06-2009, 02:41 PM   #14
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Default Re: Is James Toney a top 10 OAT middleweight in h2h terms? Or top 15? 20?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rekcutnevets View Post
I think Toney was very good at middleweight, but he didn't hit his best form until moving up to 168. Toney became one of the best counter punchers I've ever seen, due to his elusive movement and great accuracy. Too bad he hadn't quite put it all together at 160.
He looked better in the first McCallum fight at 160 than I've ever seen him look elsewhere. He never had great feet, but he showed better mid to long range boxing skills in that fight than I've ever seen from him.
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Old 12-06-2009, 07:23 PM   #15
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Default Re: Is James Toney a top 10 OAT middleweight in h2h terms? Or top 15? 20?

Quote:
Posted by Sweet Pea
He looked better in the first McCallum fight at 160 than I've ever seen him look elsewhere. He never had great feet, but he showed better mid to long range boxing skills in that fight than I've ever seen from him.
That is actually the first ppv bout I ever ordered. I live in a rural area, and that was the first fight that was ever available on cable in my area to my knowledge.

I agree in that was Toney's best performance ever. It should probably be considered his best win, regardless of the official verdict. The bout was supposed to be a title unification fight, but McCallum was stripped for accepting this bout and not facing Steve Collins. McCallum had defeated Collins the year before.

Toney was just inconsistent after his first bout with McCallum. I guess he has been inconsistent for a good part of his career, but he brought his A game for what I saw of him at supermiddle. I did not witness all of his nontitle fights at that weight. Toney was in top form on HBO; facing Doug DeWitt, Iran Barkley, Toney Thornton, Tim Littles, and Prince Charles Williams.
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