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Old 12-05-2009, 04:38 PM   #16
mcvey
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Default Re: Heavyweight Tourney: Rd 3: Pt. 2: Results

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Who do you think could have beaten Kasparov? Would you go back any further than Fischer? Would you give Tal any kind of chance?
ONE NAME





MORPHY
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Old 12-05-2009, 04:41 PM   #17
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Default Re: Heavyweight Tourney: Rd 3: Pt. 2: Results

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Voting was close. Very difficult sorting through convincing opinions back & forth. Standout factors would be Sullivans speed, power & stamina. Klitschko has size advantage, boxing ability, defense. Could have gone either way really. But Klitschko was stopped Three times in his prime. Tough call.
The call here is horrible. Sure Wlad was stopped three times, but Sullvian never fought a puncher close to the level of the guys who fought Wlad.

If a middle weight could flood Sullivan, I'm sure Wlad could too.
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Old 12-05-2009, 04:51 PM   #18
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Default Re: Heavyweight Tourney: Rd 3: Pt. 2: Results

Sounds good i knew i should have ordered the PPV.

I agree with the Rocky result. Not so much with the Klitschko call but can take nothing away from the legendary sullvin who knows what could happen over 15
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Old 12-05-2009, 05:06 PM   #19
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Default Re: Heavyweight Tourney: Rd 3: Pt. 2: Results

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The call here is horrible. Sure Wlad was stopped three times, but Sullvian never fought a puncher close to the level of the guys who fought Wlad.

If a middle weight could flood Sullivan, I'm sure Wlad could too.
I'm sure he could, but could he flood Sullivan without getting hit in return? All reports seem to indicate Sullivan had fast hands. & power. Possibly Wlad would use his superior boxing skills. 15 Rounds is a Looong way for a man as big as Klitschko. Then considering the stoppages: If Wlad had lost to Tyson or Lennox Lewis. That is one thing. But Purrity,Sanders or Brewster, are fringe contenders at best. Wladimir's skills are undeniable. But he is like an enigma? hard to explain those losses...
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Old 12-05-2009, 05:10 PM   #20
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Default Re: Heavyweight Tourney: Rd 3: Pt. 2: Results

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I'm sure he could, but could he flood Sullivan without getting hit in return? All reports seem to indicate Sullivan had fast hands. & power. Possibly Wlad would use his superior boxing skills. 15 Rounds is a Looong way for a man as big as Klitschko. Then considering the stoppages: If Wlad had lost to Tyson or Lennox Lewis. That is one thing. But Purrity,Sanders or Brewster, are fringe contenders at best. Wladimir's skills are undeniable. But he is like an enigma? hard to explain those losses...
Whether Wlad could flood Sullivan ,as Mitchell did ,would depend on how big his hose was. imo

[Sorry, I am in a flippant mood tonight].
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Old 12-05-2009, 05:19 PM   #21
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Default Re: Heavyweight Tourney: Rd 3: Pt. 2: Results

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Whether Wlad could flood Sullivan ,as Mitchell did ,would depend on how big his hose was. imo

[Sorry, I am in a flippant mood tonight].
Not as big as the Hose I'm getting flooded with in this forum! J.H. Christ!!
Ha,Ha! It's all good... All opinions are welcome. I knew this would be the most debateable fight of the Tournament!
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Old 12-05-2009, 07:07 PM   #22
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Default Re: Heavyweight Tourney: Rd 3: Pt. 2: Results

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Originally Posted by la-califa View Post
I'm sure he could, but could he flood Sullivan without getting hit in return? All reports seem to indicate Sullivan had fast hands. & power. Possibly Wlad would use his superior boxing skills. 15 Rounds is a Looong way for a man as big as Klitschko. Then considering the stoppages: If Wlad had lost to Tyson or Lennox Lewis. That is one thing. But Purrity,Sanders or Brewster, are fringe contenders at best. Wladimir's skills are undeniable. But he is like an enigma? hard to explain those losses...
Wlad's stamina for the past few years has been great. No trouble going 12. Who was the best fighter that Sullvian beat? Kirlain is the pick, and I tend to doubt he would be a top ten guy today.

The only film on Sullivan is when he's an old man hitting the bag, or mock sparring with Corbett.

Bottom line is most historians don't rate John L over the best men who came after him up to Louis in the 1930's. In fact, I'm not sure Sullvian would even have the edge in power in this match. Wlad size, skills, speed, power, defense, reach, footwork..everything but chin point to a systematic TKO here. The length of this fight would depends on how tough Sullivan really was. Sullivan has a puncher's chance, but he's short, and without a lot of reach or modern science.

Last edited by Mendoza; 12-05-2009 at 07:46 PM. Reason: more info added
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Old 12-05-2009, 10:47 PM   #23
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Default Re: Heavyweight Tourney: Rd 3: Pt. 2: Results

I think you lot forget Sullivan had cat like speed, used to leap high in the air while simultaneously punching over and thru an opponents guard. He also could leap several feet backward thru the air in defense. The man was an athlete.
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Old 12-06-2009, 03:04 AM   #24
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Default Re: Heavyweight Tourney: Rd 3: Pt. 2: Results

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I think you lot forget Sullivan had cat like speed, used to leap high in the air while simultaneously punching over and thru an opponents guard. He also could leap several feet backward thru the air in defense. The man was an athlete.
Yeah, me great great granpappy has a charcoal interpretation of a daguerreotype showing Sullivan doing a leaping lord around Kilrain before landing his vaunted right "Whiskey Jane" upon Jake's left buttock.

He would crush that whippersnapper Klitschko in two swigs of the Blarney Juice.
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Old 12-06-2009, 03:23 AM   #25
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Default Re: Heavyweight Tourney: Rd 3: Pt. 2: Results

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Yeah, me great great granpappy has a charcoal interpretation of a daguerreotype showing Sullivan doing a leaping lord around Kilrain before landing his vaunted right "Whiskey Jane" upon Jake's left buttock.

He would crush that whippersnapper Klitschko in two swigs of the Blarney Juice.
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Old 12-06-2009, 04:40 AM   #26
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Default Re: Heavyweight Tourney: Rd 3: Pt. 2: Results

I dont disagree with this result, in fact i predicted it. The only thing i cant understand is how Sullivan actually pulled it off. Rocky too for that matter, but Rocky always has that way of pulling victory out when it is least expected. This is a superhuman effort from Sullivan and a deserving victory, but didnt Wlad get more votes?
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Old 12-06-2009, 08:17 AM   #27
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Default Re: Heavyweight Tourney: Rd 3: Pt. 2: Results

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Wlad's stamina for the past few years has been great. No trouble going 12. Who was the best fighter that Sullvian beat? Kirlain is the pick, and I tend to doubt he would be a top ten guy today.

The only film on Sullivan is when he's an old man hitting the bag, or mock sparring with Corbett.

Bottom line is most historians don't rate John L over the best men who came after him up to Louis in the 1930's. In fact, I'm not sure Sullvian would even have the edge in power in this match. Wlad size, skills, speed, power, defense, reach, footwork..everything but chin point to a systematic TKO here. The length of this fight would depends on how tough Sullivan really was. Sullivan has a puncher's chance, but he's short, and without a lot of reach or modern science.
Given that Sullivan had his last fight in 1892,and was dead by 1918, a year before Dempsey ripped the ttile from Willard. which historians that actually saw him fight would have still been around to view the rise of Joe Louis?
Nat Fleischer was one of the oldest historians , and he only went back to Jeffries.
Sullivan is largely an unknown quantity.
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Old 12-07-2009, 05:42 PM   #28
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Default Re: Heavyweight Tourney: Rd 3: Pt. 2: Results

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Who do you think could have beaten Kasparov? Would you go back any further than Fischer? Would you give Tal any kind of chance?
They were more advanced so i wouldn't could them out, but i'd definitely favor Kasparov. The problem with him is that he's not only great in a head-to-head sense because of his "modern training", but that he's also arguably the greatest player of all time. He went even (2-2-2) with Spassky when he was 17-19 years of age. The amount of records he broke is scary. Truly the Muhammad Ali of chess. Fischer was a brilliant player too, though. I saw him beat a grandmaster when he was 15 years of age and did it by a stunningly deep and cool move. The grandmaster didn't surrended to give him a few moves more joy that he earned. True gentlemen, not something you want to do in boxing though!


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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
ONE NAME

MORPHY
Morphy, like Sullivan, was great for his time, but would absolutely be demolished by Kasparov, who has the knowledge of one and a half century of great chess players, and was able to study them during every second of his spare time without having to worry about food, how to travel, playing in a time when only 0.1% of all people could play chess, etc etc. No comparison head to head.
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Old 12-07-2009, 05:47 PM   #29
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Default Re: Heavyweight Tourney: Rd 3: Pt. 2: Results

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They were more advanced so i wouldn't could them out, but i'd definitely favor Kasparov. The problem with him is that he's not only great in a head-to-head sense because of his "modern training", but that he's also arguably the greatest player of all time. He went even (2-2-2) with Spassky when he was 17-19 years of age. The amount of records he broke is scary. Truly the Muhammad Ali of chess. Fischer was a brilliant player too, though. I saw him beat a grandmaster when he was 15 years of age and did it by a stunningly deep and cool move. The grandmaster didn't surrended to give him a few moves more joy that he earned. True gentlemen, not something you want to do in boxing though!.
Yeah, Kasparov was exceedingly special. I love him against Karpov, horribe. He played with real panache, too. I guess the reason I got out of chess and into boxing is that it tended to lack that visceral moment - Bronstein and Tal aside - but Kasparov's open play of his sealed move in the match with Karpov was breath-taking. Really special stuff.

His domination of Short was incredible too, given how far he was past his prime by then, a strange shadow of Duran-Barkley to me. Short would have beaten many other greats at a similair stage IMO.

As to Fishcer, I think it is only modern training that made Kasporove better. Fischer was never going to match him in the opening theory department, Gary was just brutal in that department...but Fischer may be more brillaint (hard for us mortals to be sure i guess). Head to head I favour Kasparov. I think Tal is an interesting one, and I think prime Tal may have been a bit of a bogey-man for Gary in tournie play, if unable to overhaul him in a match.
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Old 12-07-2009, 05:58 PM   #30
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Heavyweight Tourney: Rd 3: Pt. 2: Results

Okay, i've just gone to the thread and counted the votes.

The tally is in:

Number of votes for:

Sullivan: 5
Wlad: 25
Neutral: 4


Looks like not only the government of Ukraine is corrupt...


Link to the thread: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Their reasons and picks:
Sullivan:

Boilermaker (Sullivan TKO3)
Janitor (Sullivan TKO6)
Djanders (Sullivan TKO4)
Unforgiven (KO1, seems to be joking, but i'll include him in the John L camp)
Legend X (Sullivan TKO4)



Wladimir:

ChrisPontius (Wlad TKO10)
Seamus (Wlad TKO2)
Jack (Wlad KO2)
Bummy Davis (Wlad TKO7-
Mr Butt (Wlad UD, though wouldn't be surprised to see Sullivan TKO)
RonnieHornSchuh (Wlad TKO when he wants)
Frankenfrank (Wlad TKO2)
mckay_89 (Wlad early KO)
DudeGuyMan (Wlad KO1)
Guilalah (Wlad wins)
PowerPuncher (Wlad KO1)
Fleaman (Wlad TKO2)
Teeto (Wlad TKO2, agreeing with Fleaman)
196osh (Wlad by KO within a couple of rounds)
Jim Broughton (Wlad wins by KO)
PetethePrince (picking Sullivan is irresponsible thinking)
Squire (Sullivan doesn't have the skillset)
Mendoza (Wlad TKO mid rounds)
He grant (Wlad by boring decision. Janitor doesn't understand why Sullivan's face is not on dollar bills.)
am0kgonzo (agrees with Seamus)
Del Boy (Wlad KO6)
KTFO (Wlad KO2, superior footwork, etc)




Commented, but undecided:
BlackWater
Cross_trainer (does hint towards a Wlad victory)
TheGreatA
JohnThomas1
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