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Old 12-07-2009, 09:41 PM   #31
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Default Re: Name some fighters who actually have a legit clame to being the best of all time?

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Originally Posted by My2Sense View Post
Agreed 100%. In fact, that's my all-time top 5 P4P right there. The order may be debatable, but I think a top 5 should somehow comprise those fighters.

Personally, I favor Armstrong as the #1 ATG.




Agreed again. I don't see Ali and Pep as having cases for the #1 spot, or even being on the same tier as the fighters listed above.
Wow, bold statment. Reasons for you saying both dont even have a claim as the best? Also what do you think about Joe Louis getting called the best?
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Old 12-07-2009, 09:51 PM   #32
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Default Re: Name some fighters who actually have a legit clame to being the best of all time?

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Reasons for you saying both dont even have a claim as the best?
Basically what Popkins already said. Pep was only a proven ATG in one weight class, while the others were ATGs across multiple ones - that alone should prevent him from being rated over the others in a P4P sense, and thus not the #1. And while Pep/Ali both have great resumes/achievements, they aren't quite on par with the others listed.

I think the question really should be, what reasons are there for saying Pep/Ali do have claims to being the best?


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Also what do you think about Joe Louis getting called the best?
I wouldn't call him that either.
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Old 12-07-2009, 10:09 PM   #33
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Default Re: Name some fighters who actually have a legit clame to being the best of all time?

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Pep was only a proven ATG in one weight class, while the others were ATGs across multiple ones - that alone should prevent him from being rated over the others in a P4P sense, and thus not the #1.
One reason as to why I rank Morales above Joe Frazier.
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Old 12-07-2009, 10:18 PM   #34
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Default Re: Name some fighters who actually have a legit clame to being the best of all time?

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One reason as to why I rank Morales above Joe Frazier.
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Originally Posted by My2Sense View Post
Basically what Popkins already said. Pep was only a proven ATG in one weight class, while the others were ATGs across multiple ones - that alone should prevent him from being rated over the others in a P4P sense, and thus not the #1. And while Pep/Ali both have great resumes/achievements, they aren't quite on par with the others listed.

I think the question really should be, what reasons are there for saying Pep/Ali do have claims to being the best?

I wouldn't call him that either.
But Heavyweights can't help it if they cant move down. Joe Louis and Ali, are two of the most accomplished fighters of all time.
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Old 12-07-2009, 10:28 PM   #35
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Default Re: Name some fighters who actually have a legit clame to being the best of all time?

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But Heavyweights can't help it if they cant move down. Joe Louis and Ali, are two of the most accomplished fighters of all time.
They are indeed. But we have to be ruthless here, as the question demands. Are they two of the most accomplished fighters of all-time? Undoubtedly.

But, are they serious contenders for the GOAT position? I would say a blunt no. Can either man conceivably be viewed as greater than Robinson or Langford or Greb or Armstrong? Would that placing be valid?

Again, a firm no must be the answer if we are intent on keeping it to the legitimate contenders.
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Old 12-07-2009, 10:29 PM   #36
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Default Re: Name some fighters who actually have a legit clame to being the best of all time?

Alltime lists should be first and foremost about who you beat and how you beat them.

I think its unfair on career heavyweights to give them a handicap because they are unable to get any points for weight jumping.

I cant see an argument for a Morales over Frazier alltime to tell you truth...Nothing on Erik's resume comes close to Frazier beating Ali and though his legacy takes a hit with his bad losses against Foreman..He was a top fighter in one of the strongest heavy eras ever and thus think his resume is even deeper then Morales'.
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Old 12-07-2009, 10:37 PM   #37
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I cant see an argument for a Morales over Frazier alltime to tell you truth...Nothing on Erik's resume comes close to Frazier beating Ali and though his legacy takes a hit with his bad losses against Foreman..He was a top fighter in one of the strongest heavy eras ever and thus think his resume is even deeper then Morales'.
There's an argument, certainly. Morales has a deeper resume, by only a small margin, and he campaigned in more divisions and he won world titles in 3 of the 4 divisions he entered. It's true, Frazier has the greater one victory, but even that is tainted. Ali wasn't prime time, and he had been inactive due to his exile. How much that was a factor is up for debate, but I think Morales beating a prime, active Barrera and a prime, active Pacquiao shouldn't be overlooked. Longevity also becomes a factor here, where neither fighter holds the significant edge. Morales was never devastated in his prime, and showed the capacity to come back from defeat in a big way..in a way that Frazier couldn't. It's close..and by no means an absurd notion that Morales should be higher.

P.s This so called "great Heavyweight era". Jerry Quarry, Bob Foster, Jimmy Ellis, Oscar Bonavena, Muhammad Ali, and George Foreman. That also reads as, he lost to the two best fighters he ever faced, whereas Morales beat the best two fighters he ever faced. Bonavena was a tough fighter, not a great one. Same applies to Quarry, and Jimmy Ellis. Bob was a great LHW, not a good Heavyweight. Let's not overstate the division Frazier supposedly dominated.
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Old 12-07-2009, 10:41 PM   #38
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Default Re: Name some fighters who actually have a legit clame to being the best of all time?

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Alltime lists should be first and foremost about who you beat and how you beat them.

I think its unfair on career heavyweights to give them a handicap because they are unable to get any points for weight jumping.

I cant see an argument for a Morales over Frazier alltime to tell you truth...Nothing on Erik's resume comes close to Frazier beating Ali and though his legacy takes a hit with his bad losses against Foreman..He was a top fighter in one of the strongest heavy eras ever and thus think his resume is even deeper then Morales'.
great post
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Old 12-07-2009, 10:54 PM   #39
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Default Re: Name some fighters who actually have a legit clame to being the best of all time?

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P.s This so called "great Heavyweight era". Jerry Quarry, Bob Foster, Jimmy Ellis, Oscar Bonavena, Muhammad Ali, and George Foreman. That also reads as, he lost to the two best fighters he ever faced, whereas Morales beat the best two fighters he ever faced. Bonavena was a tough fighter, not a great one. Same applies to Quarry, and Jimmy Ellis. Bob was a great LHW, not a good Heavyweight. Let's not overstate the division Frazier supposedly dominated.
Whoa how does Morales going 1-2 against Pac and Barrera = Morales beat the best two fighters he ever faced?
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Old 12-07-2009, 10:56 PM   #40
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Default Re: Name some fighters who actually have a legit clame to being the best of all time?

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Whoa how does Morales going 1-2 against Pac and Barrera = Morales beat the best two fighters he ever faced?
Because he defeated the best version of Barrera that he ever faced, and Morales was effectively shot after the Raheem loss. Before that, he held wins over both Pacquiao and Barrera...but I do see your point. We'll at least credit Frazier fully for the Ali victory, but the destruction at the hands of a limited Foreman is a factor here considering Frazier was in his prime years.
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Old 12-07-2009, 11:22 PM   #41
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Default Re: Name some fighters who actually have a legit clame to being the best of all time?

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But Heavyweights can't help it if they cant move down.
Even making allowances for that, they still don't warrant being rated over the other fighters listed

Compare Ali's resume to someone like Greb for example.

Ali's biggest wins - Foreman, Liston, Frazier, Norton, Patterson.

Greb - Tunney, Walker, Loughran, Tom Gibbons, Mike Gibbons, Dillon, Rosenbloom, Levinsky, etc.

That fact that someone like Norton could be considered among Ali's bigger wins speaks volumes. Norton was not an ATG, and arguably not a true great period. Fighters like Greb, Armstrong, etc. regularly beat Norton-level fighters and don't even get remembered for it because they have so many bigger wins that easily overshadow it. Ali has some very big wins, but interspersed among many wins over Chuvalo/Quarry/Bugner-level fighters, who are probably more famous for being in with Ali than anything they actually did on their own. Hell, even Norton is only as well regarded as he is because Ali struggled so much with him.

Greb's volume and depth of work simply blows Ali's away.
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Old 12-07-2009, 11:25 PM   #42
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Default Re: Name some fighters who actually have a legit clame to being the best of all time?

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There's an argument, certainly. Morales has a deeper resume, by only a small margin, and he campaigned in more divisions and he won world titles in 3 of the 4 divisions he entered. It's true, Frazier has the greater one victory, but even that is tainted. Ali wasn't prime time, and he had been inactive due to his exile. How much that was a factor is up for debate, but I think Morales beating a prime, active Barrera and a prime, active Pacquiao shouldn't be overlooked. Longevity also becomes a factor here, where neither fighter holds the significant edge. Morales was never devastated in his prime, and showed the capacity to come back from defeat in a big way..in a way that Frazier couldn't. It's close..and by no means an absurd notion that Morales should be higher.

P.s This so called "great Heavyweight era". Jerry Quarry, Bob Foster, Jimmy Ellis, Oscar Bonavena, Muhammad Ali, and George Foreman. That also reads as, he lost to the two best fighters he ever faced, whereas Morales beat the best two fighters he ever faced. Bonavena was a tough fighter, not a great one. Same applies to Quarry, and Jimmy Ellis. Bob was a great LHW, not a good Heavyweight. Let's not overstate the division Frazier supposedly dominated.
When did I say he dominated?

I said he was a top fighter in that era...Which no matter what spin you want to put on it Addie it was a very strong era. Name me some stronger ones.

Its not only about who he beat but about who his challengers knock off on the way up..Guys like Chuvalo and Quarry are widely regarded as two of better credentialed fighters never to bag a title at the weight.

Ill tell you this now the featherweight and superfeatherweight divisions Morales ripped through are not the strongest the sport has ever seen, dont even think there is an argument for them being close to.

You very much underrate the depth of Frazier's resume pre-Foreman.
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Old 12-07-2009, 11:28 PM   #43
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That fact that someone like Norton could be considered among Ali's bigger wins speaks volumes. Norton was not an ATG, and arguably not a true great period. Fighters like Greb, Armstrong, etc. regularly beat Norton-level fighters and don't even get remembered for it because they have so many bigger wins that easily overshadow it. Ali has some very big wins, but interspersed among many wins over Chuvalo/Quarry/Bugner-level fighters, who are probably more famous for being in with Ali than anything they actually did on their own. Hell, even Norton is only as well regarded as he is because Ali struggled so much with him.
How do you know Greb regularly beat Norton-level fighters? How much footage of Greb have you personally seen?

How do you rate Muhammad Ali's resume in comparison with other Heavyweights?
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Old 12-07-2009, 11:33 PM   #44
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Default Re: Name some fighters who actually have a legit clame to being the best of all time?

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When did I say he dominated?

I said he was a top fighter in that era...Which no matter what spin you want to put on it Addie it was a very strong era. Name me some stronger ones.

Its not only about who he beat but about who his challengers knock off on the way up..Guys like Chuvalo and Quarry are widely regarded as two of better credentialed fighters never to bag a title at the weight.

Ill tell you this now the featherweight and superfeatherweight divisions Morales ripped through are not the strongest the sport has ever seen, dont even think there is an argument for them being close to.

You very much underrate the depth of Frazier's resume pre-Foreman.
Well, as I said in another thread, it's late...so excuse me if some things I come out seem a little stupid. Like, "Frazier lost to the two best fighters he faced, whereas Morales beat the best two fighters he faced". On second viewing, I almost felt like quoting myself and responding with the appropriate, "Take up golf". In any event, perhaps I underrate Frazier's credentials, but you don't suppose you're guilty of the same thing regarding Morales?

Chuvalo was no better than an In Jin Chi, just a very very tough fighter. Not much to talk about regarding ability, but his chin and will always kept him in fights, no matter what the level of opposition. That said, I can concede that Frazier does have a case for being higher than Morales, but it's a closely run thing in my judgement. All thing's considered, they both have good resumes, I think Morales was at the top for a little longer, and whereas Frazier has the win over Ali, Morales has the multiple world titles in 3 different weight classes.

What's so impressive about Joe Frazier in your view, Rock?
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Old 12-07-2009, 11:38 PM   #45
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Default Re: Name some fighters who actually have a legit clame to being the best of all time?

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How do you know Greb regularly beat Norton-level fighters? How much footage of Greb have you personally seen?
What does it matter if I've actually seen him do it or not? The fact still remains that he did it. Fighters like Wilson, Chip, McGoorty, Miske, McTigue, Gunboat Smith, etc. were at least on par with someone like Norton.
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