Was Ali's second tier list better than some first tier lists?

[OLD FOGEY]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

Do you at least think that some of them might be competitive in the various eras that you listed?

Certainly there would be contenders, with possibly a couple of exceptions like Mathis. He gassed after five or six rounds. I don't think he would have gotten close to a championship fight in those days.

My point is I don't pick anybody on that list as a favorite over the four I listed, and these are contenders, not champions, and their resumes are better than Ali's second string resume.

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY

Certainly there would be contenders, with possibly a couple of exceptions like Mathis. He gassed after five or six rounds. I don't think he would have gotten close to a championship fight in those days.

My point is I don't anybody on that list as a favorite over the four I listed, and these are contenders, not champions, and their resumes are better than Ali's second string resume.

I can't disagree with you there. I looked up Young Stribling on Boxrec. He had an unbelievable number of fights before even hitting the age of 29. If I read it right, I believe he died just one month after his last fight at age 30 or something. Incredible resume. I'm thinking of doing a little research on him and possibly starting a thread in the next week or so.

[OLD FOGEY]

Originally Posted by groove

Quarry, Ellis, Young and Lyle - those fighters are as good as the 50s contenders - light heavies Moore and Charles - look at what happened to a great light heavy in Bob Foster when he fought top class heavies like Frazier or Ali - no fucking contest. Old Walcott and Louis. Man Rocky would've had tougher fights against that bunch as they were proper heavies apart from Ellis and at their peak - Rocky fought no fighter at their peak and definitely no proper heavy. They all would beat Don Cockell. Shit Chuvalu, Bonavena, Terrell, Shavers, even Bugner would've beaten him up.

Bob Foster? He never beat a top ten heavyweight. Not exactly the same as these men.

Peak? So what. You can come halfway down Mt Everest and still be much higher than your local hill, even if the hill looks pretty tall if you're standing next to it. These guys weren't that good nor that big. Ellis, possibly actually the best of them, as he beat Patterson, Quarry, Bonavena, Chuvalo, and Martin, had been an ordinary middleweight who never cracked the middleweight rankings and had a losing record against rated middleweights.

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by groove

Quarry, Ellis, Young and Lyle - those fighters are as good as the 50s contenders - light heavies Moore and Charles - look at what happened to a great light heavy in Bob Foster when he fought top class heavies like Frazier or Ali - no fucking contest.

And what happened when Foster fought "Average Joe"-heavies ? No fucking contest.

[OLD FOGEY]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

And what happened when Foster fought "Average Joe"-heavies ? No fucking contest.

Earlier lightheavies--Loughran, Moore, and Johnson did well, Later lightheavies, Spinks, Roy Jones, Toney, did well. Foster, in my estimation, is not a paradigm of what happens to lightheavies who move up.

Foster lost to Doug Jones, and Jones gave Ali a very close fight. Harold Johnson beat Jones easily. I think you can only push the Foster business so far. He lost to most of the best fighters he fought other than the 39 year old Tiger. Ali, Frazier, Jones, Terrell, Folley, and Mina all beat him.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

We all know who the big wins were for Muhammad Ali. His first tier list consists primarily of Foreman, Frazier, Liston and either Norton or Patterson ( depending on who you talk to ).

This thread is designed to discuss who his second tier list of opponents were, and weather or not this secondary list was as good or better than some champion's top list.

Ali's second tier list:
( in no particular order)

1. Jerry Quarry

2. Ron Lyle

3. Oscar Bonavena

4. Jimmy Ellis

5. Earnie Shavers

6. Jimmy Young

7. Buster Mathis

8. Earnie Terrell

9. Zora Folley

10. Mac Foster

11. Cleveland Williams

12. Joe Bugner

Now, what do you guys think? Were these opponents better than the top list of contenders that some lineal champions faced. How about guys like Dempsey, Johnson, Holmes, Louis, or Marciano?

These oponents would make up a prety solid resume but it is important not to build them up to more than they were as OLD FOGEY has pointed out.

While Ali's A teir is unmatched his B teir might not necisarily be the best of any heavyweight champion. If you took Joe Louis's A teir to exclude Baer Schmeling and Walcott you would still have a lot of talent.

Where dose Floyd PAtterson fit in by the way?

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by janitor

These oponents would make up a prety solid resume but it is important not to build them up to more than they were as OLD FOGEY has pointed out.

While Ali's A teir is unmatched his B teir might not necisarily be the best of any heavyweight champion. If you took Joe Louis's A teir to exclude Baer Schmeling and Walcott you would still have a lot of talent.

Where dose Floyd PAtterson fit in by the way?

I originally place Norton and Patterson in the top tier with the parenthesis ( depending on who you talk to )

Some people have them both in the top tier while others may put them in tier B. I'll say one thing, if you place Patterson and Norton in the second tier, and eliminate say Folley, Williams and Mathis, you'd probably have a stronger list.

[PowerPuncher]

Where would you rank these on your top HW lists?

I think Young & Quarrey maybe around 30/40 mark. Lyle around mid 40s. Shavers & Ellis top60.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by groove

Quarry, Ellis, Young and Lyle - those fighters are as good as the 50s contenders - light heavies Moore and Charles - look at what happened to a great light heavy in Bob Foster when he fought top class heavies like Frazier or Ali - no fucking contest.

I honestly don't think that Bob Foster would have done any better in the heavyweight division of the early 50s than in his own era. He just did not have the style to be an efective heavyweight.

If you want a practical demonstration that the top contenders of the Marciano era would have been efective in Ali's era look at Harold Johnson. He fought a few of the same oponents as Muhamad Ali and Sonny Liston while past his best and did better against most of them.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

I strongly disagree here.

You claim that Quarry, Lyle, Shavers and Young could beat anyone Johnson, Dempsey, Marciano and Holmes beat.
I beg to differ.

Young is the best fighter out of those in my opinion. I don't see Shavers getting past Walcott (if Walcott comes out like he did against Marciano, he may well knock him out in the 1st), Charles would beat Shavers, Witherspoon would beat Shavers, Cobb (a Holmes opponent) in fact DID beat Shavers and needless to say, Cobb is one of Holmes' worst opponents, so go figure.

Lyle was very limited and it appears to me he gets hyped up a lot because he's on Ali's resume. Sorry but i don't see all that big punching ability that people make him out to have. He knocked out Shavers (who was knocked out even by journeymen several times) and that's it. He went the distance in almost every other big fight. Losing the decision, i might add. He certainly wouldn't get past smart and cagey veterans like Walcott, Charles, Moore or a Witherspoon, etc. He gets called a huge puncher to save Foreman's chin from looking bad, but mind you he was also floored by Young and Ali who didn't carry a big punch either.

Young and Quarry are better and they might beat some, but certainly would lose quite some fights, like they did in reality.

To sum it up, Quarry, Young, Shavers and Lyle as a group have lost fights to: each other, Lynn Ball, Gerry Cooney, Ossie Ocasio, Ken Norton, Bob Stallings, Bernardo Mercado, Randall Cobb, Eddie Machen, Jimmy Ellis and George Chuvalo.

These are hardly entities that made the era as great as you think it is. In fact, while most of those fighters were good contenders, they were nothing special. Fighters like that were around in every era and they would've always caused the listed fighters trouble, hence i see no reason to assume they would've been champions in any other era. It's not like Ali and Frazier were in their primes from 72 on, but they still beat them every time.

The key word here is could beat. I did not say would beat for sure. Yes, Shavers could KO Walcott or Charles. Yes Jimmy Young could out box anyone Johnson beat. Yes Quarry could beat anyone Dempsey beat. Yes Lyle could KO Schmeling or UD Baer.

If you want to tally up the W's and L's of Ali's tier two opponents, then compare them the W's and L's of the fighters Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, and Marciano beat, I think Ali's opponents will look a bit better.

Yes Quarry, Young, Shavers and Lyle as a group have lost fights to: each other, Lynn Ball, Gerry Cooney, Ossie Ocasio, Ken Norton, Bob Stallings, Bernardo Mercado, Randall Cobb, Eddie Machen, Jimmy Ellis and George Chuvalo. However Walcott and Chalres by themselves lost a lot and in some cases to lesser men than the above names. The same can be said for Louis or Dempsey opponents.

There have been quite a few weak lineal champions. Hart, Braddock, Spinks, Rhaman, ect..... For sure Quarry, Lyle, Shavers, and Young were just as good, if not better.

[Cojimar 1945]

Ali fought a number of top contenders in his second reign though the decisions in the Norton and Young fights are controversial. Foreman was not the top contender for a long time so Ali hardly can be accussed of ducking him. Foreman is also not as difficult for Ali stylistically as Norton.

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

I strongly disagree here.

You claim that Quarry, Lyle, Shavers and Young could beat anyone Johnson, Dempsey, Marciano and Holmes beat.
I beg to differ.

Young is the best fighter out of those in my opinion. I don't see Shavers getting past Walcott (if Walcott comes out like he did against Marciano, he may well knock him out in the 1st), Charles would beat Shavers, Witherspoon would beat Shavers, Cobb (a Holmes opponent) in fact DID beat Shavers and needless to say, Cobb is one of Holmes' worst opponents, so go figure.

Lyle was very limited and it appears to me he gets hyped up a lot because he's on Ali's resume. Sorry but i don't see all that big punching ability that people make him out to have. He knocked out Shavers (who was knocked out even by journeymen several times) and that's it. He went the distance in almost every other big fight. Losing the decision, i might add. He certainly wouldn't get past smart and cagey veterans like Walcott, Charles, Moore or a Witherspoon, etc. He gets called a huge puncher to save Foreman's chin from looking bad, but mind you he was also floored by Young and Ali who didn't carry a big punch either.

Young and Quarry are better and they might beat some, but certainly would lose quite some fights, like they did in reality.


To sum it up, Quarry, Young, Shavers and Lyle as a group have lost fights to: each other, Lynn Ball, Gerry Cooney, Ossie Ocasio, Ken Norton, Bob Stallings, Bernardo Mercado, Randall Cobb, Eddie Machen, Jimmy Ellis and George Chuvalo.

These are hardly entities that made the era as great as you think it is. In fact, while most of those fighters were good contenders, they were nothing special. Fighters like that were around in every era and they would've always caused the listed fighters trouble, hence i see no reason to assume they would've been champions in any other era. It's not like Ali and Frazier were in their primes from 72 on, but they still beat them every time.

[groove]

And what happened when Foster fought "Average Joe"-heavies ? No fucking contest.

Beg to differ. Terrell and Zora Folley were not average joe heavies.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by groove

Beg to differ. Terrell and Zora Folley were not average joe heavies.

They would not have been dealt with conclusivley by Charles or Moore.

[mr. magoo]

=dave krieg]Ali's first tier was basically Foreman,Frazier and Norton

I think you can ad Liston and Patterson to that first tier list.

virtually everybody else he fought were overrated just to make Ali seem like he fought alot of great fighters but even that said average fighters like Doug Jones hurt him and beat him and were robbed.

I've never heard the claim that Doug Jones was robbed against Muhammad Ali and nor do I agree that most of his opponents were over hyped.