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Old 12-11-2009, 12:07 AM   #16
PetethePrince
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

My2sense, didn't Suzie Q own you on this subject awhile back? Or is my memory confusing something else. I remember him bringing the Ring ratings too. You brought the NBA subject, he said that held no real meaning. I'll possibly search for that thread if I can...
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Old 12-11-2009, 12:42 AM   #17
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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My2sense, didn't Suzie Q own you on this subject awhile back? Or is my memory confusing something else. I remember him bringing the Ring ratings too. You brought the NBA subject, he said that held no real meaning. I'll possibly search for that thread if I can...
This is the only other thread where I talked about Graziano's ranking in '46:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

I don't where/how you see that I was "owned" here though. Nor do I see how anyone could be "owned", as it's just a simple fact.
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Old 12-11-2009, 02:50 AM   #18
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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But you're judging them partially from retrospect and what they did afterward, which is unfair. As I said, Graziano was the NBA's leading contender in mid '46, and was favored to beat Zale. Besides, it was probably the most in-demand fight from the public - hence the reason it was such a big money fight.
No, I am presenting the facts.
Graziano's other notable wins were over Cochrane ,Davis ,Green and Arnold ,all welters .
Cochrane never fought a 160 pounder.
Green ,apart from beating Graziano twice never beat a rated 160 pounder .
Ditto Davis.
Ditto Arnold.
The leading contenders were Lamotta ,and Burley,and previous to that , Williams,Burley,and Lamotta.
Graziano never met any of his rated contemparies, out side of Zale.
He was shooed in ,similar to Boom Boom Mancini.,but Mancini did fight guys like Arguello.

Graziano's management steered him away from just about every dangerous Middleweight apart from the 35 year old Zale ,who they had to take ,if they wanted the title.

"Somebody up there likes me" ?

Somebody down here liked him too ,to give him a two title shots over more deserving contenders.
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Old 12-11-2009, 03:33 PM   #19
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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It says right on there, "As selected by The Ring magazine in the February 1947 issue."
I have read in a 1950's Ring Magazine. That they select the ratings of 1946 in early 1947........So thats why.....
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Old 12-11-2009, 06:11 PM   #20
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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No, I am presenting the facts.
It's a FACT that Rocky was rated over LaMotta and Burley by the NBA. It's also a FACT that he was heavily favored to beat Zale. Again, how can there be criticism for a titleholder for fighting his leading contender, and who is expected to beat him on top of it? That's normally what a champion is expected to do, and criticized if he doesn't do. You can look at any reports from his day and see that the fans and writers lauded him for fighting someone as dangerous as Rocky in his first defense since returning from the army. The notion that Zale was somehow "avoiding" other contenders or selecting a "less dangerous" challenger is purely a revisionist one.
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Old 12-11-2009, 06:22 PM   #21
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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It's a FACT that Rocky was rated over LaMotta and Burley by the NBA. It's also a FACT that he was heavily favored to beat Zale. Again, how can there be criticism for a titleholder for fighting his leading contender, and who is expected to beat him on top of it? That's normally what a champion is expected to do, and criticized if he doesn't do. You can look at any reports from his day and see that the fans and writers lauded him for fighting someone as dangerous as Rocky in his first defense since returning from the army. The notion that Zale was somehow "avoiding" other contenders or selecting a "less dangerous" challenger is purely a revisionist one.
The NBA never had any credibilty with me,they sanctioned a heavyweight title fight between Joe Frazier ,and unranked Buster Mathis,I go by the Ring rankings.NBA,WBA, NBC,WBC.ABC,all a load of shit imo.I know who was ranked by the Ring as number one and two ,and it sure wasnt Rocco Barbella
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Old 12-11-2009, 06:24 PM   #22
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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The NBA never had any credibilty with me,they sanctioned a heavyweight title fight between Joe Frazier ,and unranked Buster Mathis,I go by the Ring rankings.NBA,WBA, NBC,WBC.ABC,all a load of shit imo.I know who was ranked by the Ring as number one and two ,and it sure wasnt Rocco Barbella
Yep.......
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Old 12-11-2009, 06:56 PM   #23
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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The NBA never had any credibilty with me,they sanctioned a heavyweight title fight between Joe Frazier ,and unranked Buster Mathis,I go by the Ring rankings.NBA,WBA, NBC,WBC.ABC,all a load of shit imo.
Why does it matter if the NBA has any "credibility" with you, me, or anyone else 60 years after the fact? It had credibility when the fight happened, and that's what matters. Suggesting that any champion should concern himself with what someone 60 years later might think of his choice of opponents is absurd.


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I know who was ranked by the Ring as number one and two ,and it sure wasnt Rocco Barbella
Do you have the rankings from April '46?
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Old 12-11-2009, 06:59 PM   #24
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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Originally Posted by My2Sense View Post
Why does it matter if the NBA has any "credibility" with you, me, or anyone else 60 years after the fact? It had credibility when the fight happened, and that's what matters. Suggesting that any champion should concern himself with what someone 60 years later might think of his choice of opponents is absurd.




Do you have the rankings from April '46?
I just cant get over the fact that your basically saying Graziano was more worthy of a Title shot than Burley and Lamotta, WHEN HE CLEARLY WASN'T!
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Old 12-11-2009, 07:27 PM   #25
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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Originally Posted by My2Sense View Post
Why does it matter if the NBA has any "credibility" with you, me, or anyone else 60 years after the fact? It had credibility when the fight happened, and that's what matters. Suggesting that any champion should concern himself with what someone 60 years later might think of his choice of opponents is absurd.




Do you have the rankings from April '46?
I have seen them.
This has become a crusade on your part to somehow prove Graziano deserved a title shot before Lamotta and co ,when he clearly didn't.
I did not start this thread as a stick to beat either Zale or Graziano.
Graziano got the shot because 1, he had great drawing power,because he was a "let it all hang out puncher" ,with little defence, in short a crowd pleaser.
2. Because the aging Zale and his people knew he posed the least threat of the contenders.
match Graziano with Lamotta,Marshall, Burley ,in fact most of the top ten and give an honest opinion to yourself how those fights would come out.

Graziano would not go near Lamotta,and Burley would have embarrassed him.
I like your posts ,and the way you argue your points ,but I fundamentally differ on this .
Lets agree to disagree.
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Old 12-11-2009, 07:43 PM   #26
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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I did not start this thread as a stick to beat either Zale or Graziano.
Graziano got the shot because 1, he had great drawing power,because he was a "let it all hang out puncher" ,with little defence, in short a crowd pleaser.
2. Because the aging Zale and his people knew he posed the least threat of the contenders.
And those are both rather revisionist claims (particularly the second) that do not reflect a number of the facts and conventional thinking at the time the fight happened. Rocky got the shot because he vaulted to the NBA's top contender spot after beating Servo (whether you agree with that or not, it's still what happened), and the belief clearly expressed in most reports was that he was the most dangerous challenger out there for Zale. At the time, it was thought it would've been more prudent for him to fight one of the fellow "aging" veterans in his first defense back rather than the streaking young KO artist.
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Old 12-11-2009, 07:58 PM   #27
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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And those are both rather revisionist claims (particularly the second) that do not reflect a number of the facts and conventional thinking at the time the fight happened. Rocky got the shot because he vaulted to the NBA's top contender spot after beating Servo (whether you agree with that or not, it's still what happened), and the belief clearly expressed in most reports was that he was the most dangerous challenger out there for Zale. At the time, it was thought it would've been more prudent for him to fight one of the fellow "aging" veterans in his first defense back rather than the streaking young KO artist.
Bullshit.......Lamotta and Burley were the most dangerous contenders out there for Zale's title. Both Lamotta and Burley would of licked Zale and Graziano........
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Old 12-11-2009, 08:21 PM   #28
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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Bullshit.......Lamotta and Burley were the most dangerous contenders out there for Zale's title.
Those who were actually following the sport and those fighters at the time said otherwise.

For example:

"...The Hoosier gladiator has selected his most dangerous challenger for his first defense of the crown, a fact which speaks eloquently, in this day of more or less convenient match-making, of Zale's fearlessness and his attitude toward the championship responsibility."
-The NY Times, April Sept. 27, 1946
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Old 12-11-2009, 08:57 PM   #29
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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Those who were actually following the sport and those fighters at the time said otherwise.

For example:

"...The Hoosier gladiator has selected his most dangerous challenger for his first defense of the crown, a fact which speaks eloquently, in this day of more or less convenient match-making, of Zale's fearlessness and his attitude toward the championship responsibility."
-The NY Times, April Sept. 27, 1946
So just because a newspaper said this, then it is fact? Lamotta and Burley were much greater fighters than Graziano, and deserved there title shots before him. That is a fact...........

You trying to dispute this is stupid......

Question. How do you think Graziano actually fairs against Lamotta and Burley if he were to of actually fought them?, instead of ducking the both of them.
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Old 12-11-2009, 09:08 PM   #30
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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So just because a newspaper said this, then it is fact?
Is something a fact because someone on an internet forum 60 years later says it?

You can find no shortage of reports from that time that repeat that sentiment; so yes, it does mean it's a fact that Rocky was widely considered his most dangerous challenger at that time.


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You trying to dispute this is stupid......
No it isn't, it's showing a regard for historical accuracy.

Last edited by My2Sense; 12-11-2009 at 11:31 PM.
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