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Old 12-12-2009, 04:59 AM   #31
mcvey
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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Originally Posted by My2Sense View Post
And those are both rather revisionist claims (particularly the second) that do not reflect a number of the facts and conventional thinking at the time the fight happened. Rocky got the shot because he vaulted to the NBA's top contender spot after beating Servo (whether you agree with that or not, it's still what happened), and the belief clearly expressed in most reports was that he was the most dangerous challenger out there for Zale. At the time, it was thought it would've been more prudent for him to fight one of the fellow "aging" veterans in his first defense back rather than the streaking young KO artist.
Aging veterans? In 1946 Burley was 29 years old, Lamotta 25years old,one year older than Graziano.
Basora was 28,Edgar 25,Belloise 28,Baroudi 20,Priest 26,Lytell 22,Abrams28,and Cerdan, the oldest at 30.
Cerdan would get the call after the Graziano trilogy was done.

It's true that Graziano was a"streaking ko artist",seven of his last eight fights had been ko wins ,however all of them were WELTERWEIGHTS, the other opponent Sonny Horne was a Middle,and he went the distance losing a dec.

This is a horse that "wont run"

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Old 12-12-2009, 06:13 AM   #32
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Aging veterans? In 1946 Burley was 29 years old, Lamotta 25years old,one year older than Graziano.
Basora was 28,Edgar 25,Belloise 28,Baroudi 20,Priest 26,Lytell 22,Abrams28,and Cerdan, the oldest at 30.
Cerdan would get the call after the Graziano trilogy was done.
28-30 isn't young for a guy who's been through the mill and possibly lost years to war service as well.

As it is, a number of those fighters were clearly noted in reports as being past their peaks around this time. It was even suggested Cerdan might be past his peak following his loss to Delannoit.

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Old 12-12-2009, 06:33 AM   #33
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

For example, here's a report on the first fight between Belloise and Abrams, a couple months before the Graziano-Zale fight was held:

"The fight was not especially thrilling, bringing together as it did two balding gentlemen who were at the peak of their respective careers before Pearl Harbor caused them to enlist in the Navy."
-Joseph C. Nichols, NY Times, August 24, 1946

Abrams was actually thought to be possibly washed up coming into this fight, and his win was a huge upset.
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Old 12-13-2009, 05:46 AM   #34
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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Originally Posted by My2Sense View Post
For example, here's a report on the first fight between Belloise and Abrams, a couple months before the Graziano-Zale fight was held:

"The fight was not especially thrilling, bringing together as it did two balding gentlemen who were at the peak of their respective careers before Pearl Harbor caused them to enlist in the Navy."
-Joseph C. Nichols, NY Times, August 24, 1946

Abrams was actually thought to be possibly washed up coming into this fight, and his win was a huge upset.
Abrams was the standout contender when Zale fought him for the title,he floored Zale in the first and was competitive allthrough.Abrams began to lose his hair early in life what has that to do with his ability?
Abrams was still in the top 5 of the Ring's rating's in 46.
Cerdan was a little past his best after the War imo,maybe thats why Zale's people took him.
You suggest that Graziano was the more dangerous challenger,and that Zale should be commended for taking on a young ko artist ,instead of a "veteran" in his middle 20's.Yet after Zale disposed of Rocky ,that's exactly what he did ,he picked the oldest ranked challenger and defended against him.
The young ko artist had names on his record ,but they were all welterweights.Graziano was a protected fighter,and in his championship reign so was Zale.
Bottom line, Lamotta,Burley, Belloise,Edgar,Basora,Williams,Chase,Booker,Lytell,Tunero,and half a dozen more did not get shots at the title.

Zale can be excused some of this because of the War, but it is undeniably true that he chose Graziano to defend against over more deserving challengers Lamotta and Burley.
Zale and Graziano,tied up the middle weight title for 3 years, only the fact that Zale was past it made their fights the competitive wars they were,imo.
We saw the same thing with Floyd and Ingo 3 years of pass the parcel while challengers like Liston ,Machen and Folley waited in the wings.

Its interesting that after Zale kod Graziano in their last fight ,Rocky only briefly stayed in the ratings ,no 10 in 47 and then was gone,I feel his entertainment value got him his shots,and maybe it's for the best,otherwise we would have been denied their 3rd fight slug fest,sadly no film of their first 2 fights has ever surfaced.

I doubt those challengers who were never given the opportunity to try an on the slide Zale would view it this way though.
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Old 12-13-2009, 01:35 PM   #35
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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Originally Posted by cotto20 View Post
I have read in a 1950's Ring Magazine. That they select the ratings of 1946 in early 1947........So thats why.....
So in a 1950s Ring mag, it cleary staes that the rankings for the year of 1946 were selected in early 1947.

Also surely the monthly ranking at the time is far more relavant than the end of teh year ranking, and im sure it would have differed slightly
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:53 PM   #36
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Abrams was the standout contender when Zale fought him for the title,he floored Zale in the first and was competitive allthrough.Abrams began to lose his hair early in life what has that to do with his ability?
It wasn't "early" in his life, that's the point: he was nearly 30 and had served four years in the navy. This report, as pretty much every other from that time, says both his appearance and form were indicative of an aging veteran.


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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Abrams was still in the top 5 of the Ring's rating's in 46.
Before the war, he had been rated #1 by The Ring, and was actually favored to beat Zale when they fought; so even looking at it from that angle, he still was less than what he had been before the war.

Since the war, he had reportedly looked subpar in a string of warm-up fights (including one draw) and was a heavy underdog against Steve Belloise, who he had been considered much better than before the war.

Again, from the Times:
"So lightly regarded that he [Abrams] was held the short-ender at odds of 1 to 4, with the bookmakers refusing to accept any bets on Belloise, the clever Abrams managed to work his way to a split decision over the uptown battler."

What is your basis for implying that Abrams was still at his peak at this point?

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
You suggest that Graziano was the more dangerous challenger,and that Zale should be commended for taking on a young ko artist ,instead of a "veteran" in his middle 20's.
No, "I" didn't suggest that; it was tons of writers and fans, plus the largest and most powerful sanctioning body at that time, that "suggested" it. I don't see how anyone 60 years later, without having seen what they saw and being less informed on the whole situation, can dispute their perceptions. Even more importantly, I don't see how a champion should warrant anything other than praise (and that's indeed what Zale got at the time) for fighting who is widely perceived as his most dangerous challenger.


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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
We saw the same thing with Floyd and Ingo 3 years of pass the parcel while challengers like Liston ,Machen and Folley waited in the wings.
This isn't wholly accurate either.

Machen wasn't "waiting," he was blasted out in one round by Ingo and then lost to Folley and later Liston. He wasn't in position at any point to challenge for the title.

Liston didn't distinguish himself as a leading contender until toward the end of the Floyd-Ingo series. It was Floyd's dicking around after the series that caused Liston to have to wait more than anything.
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Old 12-14-2009, 09:02 AM   #37
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

Its revisionist history to claim that Rocky deserved a shot more than Burley or Lamotta based on what the NBA and New York papers said considering both where accepting bribes to push certain fighters. Graziano was the money fighter at that time based on his padded record over welterweights. That is why he got the shot, not because he deserved it. He lost two of three to a faded Zale and was even losing the other fight when he pulled it out with a lucky punch. When he had another opportunity at the title, to face LaMotta, he knew what he was in for and punched a tree at his training camp to get out of the fight. Anyone who wants to argue that he deserved a shot at the MW title more than a handful of other fighters, and would have been as dangerous a contender as those other fighters has no understanding of the sport in the late 1940's.
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Old 12-14-2009, 01:24 PM   #38
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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Originally Posted by My2Sense View Post
It wasn't "early" in his life, that's the point: he was nearly 30 and had served four years in the navy. This report, as pretty much every other from that time, says both his appearance and form were indicative of an aging veteran.




Before the war, he had been rated #1 by The Ring, and was actually favored to beat Zale when they fought; so even looking at it from that angle, he still was less than what he had been before the war.

Since the war, he had reportedly looked subpar in a string of warm-up fights (including one draw) and was a heavy underdog against Steve Belloise, who he had been considered much better than before the war.

Again, from the Times:
"So lightly regarded that he [Abrams] was held the short-ender at odds of 1 to 4, with the bookmakers refusing to accept any bets on Belloise, the clever Abrams managed to work his way to a split decision over the uptown battler."

What is your basis for implying that Abrams was still at his peak at this point?



No, "I" didn't suggest that; it was tons of writers and fans, plus the largest and most powerful sanctioning body at that time, that "suggested" it. I don't see how anyone 60 years later, without having seen what they saw and being less informed on the whole situation, can dispute their perceptions. Even more importantly, I don't see how a champion should warrant anything other than praise (and that's indeed what Zale got at the time) for fighting who is widely perceived as his most dangerous challenger.




This isn't wholly accurate either.

Machen wasn't "waiting," he was blasted out in one round by Ingo and then lost to Folley and later Liston. He wasn't in position at any point to challenge for the title.

Liston didn't distinguish himself as a leading contender until toward the end of the Floyd-Ingo series. It was Floyd's dicking around after the series that caused Liston to have to wait more than anything.
You pick a newspaper article on 2 of the 10 contenders concerning one fight, and use that to prove they were past it?
Even if you were right which I don't think you are ,what about the other 8?
How come Abrams was still rated years later?
I never said he was prime but he was 2 years younger than Cerdan,gave him a hell of a fight that many said should have been a draw.
Cerdan's win over Abrams put him on the map in the states.
What is your basis for asserting that Graziano merited a title shot over the two men ranked above him namely Lamotta and Burley ?
Had Graziano fought either of these to get his shot ,which he should have done, how do you think he would have fared?
Zale picked a challenger unproven at middleweight ,who had he beat who was even a fringe contender at 160lbs?
After getting the best of Graziano in their series Zale then picked the oldest challenger in the top ten to defend against ,so where is your premise that he defended against young men?
Lamotta was only a year older than Graziano ,and Burley at 29 was hardly shot.

Eddie Machen" wasn't in a position at any time to challenge for the title".
This is absurd .

Patterson's on/ off reign lasted from 56 to 62 ,during that time Machen was a rated contender ,in the top ten for every year of Floyd's reign,

Machen was never lower than number 7.

During these 6 years Machen had 37 fights losing only 4 , to
Harold Johnson by dec
Folley by dec
Liston by dec
Johannson by ko.
Machen beat the following contenders and fringe contenders ,in this period.
Mederos x2
Valdes x2
Dejohn x 2
Bethea
Miteff
Alonzo Johnson
London
Rischer
Jones
Maxim x2
Baker
Summerlin
Holman
Jackson
Besmanoff
McMurtry
Hunter

That's 21 fights against quality opposition out of 37.

If that does not merit a title shot, what does?

Folley was likewise rated in the top ten for every year of Patterson's two reigns.
Plus another two years, making a total of 8 years as a rated contender without receiving a title shot.
Liston was
no 9 in 58
no 3 in 59
no 1 in 60
no 1 in 61
He finally embarrassed Floyd into a title shot the following year

Last edited by mcvey; 12-15-2009 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 12-14-2009, 08:35 PM   #39
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
You pick a newspaper article on 2 of the 10 contenders concerning one fight, and use that to prove they were past it?
Even if you were right which I don't think you are ,what about the other 8?
How many articles do you want me to dig up and repost? You can find no shortage of reports from that time that say Abrams and a number of the other contenders you listed were either faded or possibly fading at that time. You should look into that yourself if you're interested in making judgments on their form at that time.


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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
How come Abrams was still rated years later?
What "years later"? He was done as a contender by the end of '47 and retired the next year. I have no idea what you're talking about here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
I never said he was prime...
Do you not question the reports that say he was past prime? What is your point then?

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
What is your basis for asserting that Graziano merited a title shot over the two men ranked above him namely Lamotta and Burley ?
Again, it's not "my basis," as I've already said. It's the basis of the sanctioning body and a host of fans and writers who were following the sport at that time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Had Grazianio fought either of these to get his shot ,which he should have done, how do you think he would have fared?
I don't know, I don't know what Graziano or most of those other contenders looked like at that time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Zale picked a challenger unproven at middleweight ,who had he beat who was even a fringe contender at 160lbs?
Again, he didn't "pick" a challenger, he fought his #1 rated contender at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
After getting the best of Graziano in their series Zale then picked the oldest challenger in the top ten to defend against ,so where is your premise that he defended against young men?
He defended against Graziano twice. I don't see what his later fight with Cerdan has to do with anything.


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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Patterson's on/ off reign lasted from 56 to 62 ,during that time Machen was a rated contender ,in the top ten for every year of Floyd's reign,
But that's not the time frame you referred to. The Floyd-Ingo series only went from mid '59 to early '61.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Liston was
no 9 in 58
no 3 in 59
no 1 in 60
no 1 in 61
He finally embarrassed Floyd into a title shot the following year
Which means that it mostly wasn't the Floyd-Ingo series that caused him to be shut out, as that ended in early '60.
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:20 AM   #40
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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Originally Posted by My2Sense View Post
For example, here's a report on the first fight between Belloise and Abrams, a couple months before the Graziano-Zale fight was held:

"The fight was not especially thrilling, bringing together as it did two balding gentlemen who were at the peak of their respective careers before Pearl Harbor caused them to enlist in the Navy."
-Joseph C. Nichols, NY Times, August 24, 1946

Abrams was actually thought to be possibly washed up coming into this fight, and his win was a huge upset.
We can see what a pile of crap this judgement was by the fact that,Belloise was rated
no 6 in 41
no5 in 43
no 6 in 46
no 4 in 47

no 2 in 48
no 5 in 49 . 8 YEARS AFTER PEARL HARBOUR
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:36 AM   #41
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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Originally Posted by My2Sense View Post
How many articles do you want me to dig up and repost? You can find no shortage of reports from that time that say Abrams and a number of the other contenders you listed were either faded or possibly fading at that time. You should look into that yourself if you're interested in making judgments on their form at that time.




What "years later"? He was done as a contender by the end of '47 and retired the next year. I have no idea what you're talking about here.




Do you not question the reports that say he was past prime? What is your point then?



Again, it's not "my basis," as I've already said. It's the basis of the sanctioning body and a host of fans and writers who were following the sport at that time.



I don't know, I don't know what Graziano or most of those other contenders looked like at that time.



Again, he didn't "pick" a challenger, he fought his #1 rated contender at the time.



He defended against Graziano twice. I don't see what his later fight with Cerdan has to do with anything.




But that's not the time frame you referred to. The Floyd-Ingo series only went from mid '59 to early '61.




Which means that it mostly wasn't the Floyd-Ingo series that caused him to be shut out, as that ended in early '60.
IN 59 Machen was no5
IN 60 no3
IN 61 no2
So clearly he was in contention ,as a leading contender and not as you said" never in a position to challenge for the title."
You say you don't know what the outcome would have been in fights between Graziano and the two men rated above him,Lamotta and Burley, yet based on a newspaper article you beleive Belloise and Abrams prime was pre Pearl Harbour.I show you Belloise was the rated no 5 contender 8 years after Pearl Harbour ,what does that say about the prick who wrote that assessment?
I think you ducked the question about Graziano's chances against Lamotta and Burley.
You say I should read the articles of that period,I think you should delve a little into the NBA,and the corruption that it fostered before assuming that , if they did it it must be kosher.
By the way Ring magazine had Cerdan at number 3 when he got his shot at the title ,one place above Belloise, whom you assert was seven years past it..Given that Cerdan had lost one of his last two fights ,I think that ranking is accurate.
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Old 12-15-2009, 01:37 PM   #42
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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Originally Posted by My2Sense View Post
28-30 isn't young for a guy who's been through the mill and possibly lost years to war service as well.

As it is, a number of those fighters were clearly noted in reports as being past their peaks around this time. It was even suggested Cerdan might be past his peak following his loss to Delannoit.
Abrams was called up and lost years to the war ,but Belloise was inactive only from 1943 Dec 6th to 1945 27th Nov.
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Old 12-15-2009, 02:24 PM   #43
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

Very interesting back and forth here guys, and disputes with fact and opinions rather than swearing and smileys

cotto20 as always just comes across as odd.

Two basis of arguments: both valid IMO.
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Old 12-15-2009, 02:29 PM   #44
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

I think the one thing to remember is that Graziano proved himself to be one if the toughest fights out there, regardless of it being unfair the likes of Burley not getting that shot.
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Old 12-15-2009, 03:02 PM   #45
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Default Re: Zale gave Jake a miss and opted for Graziano

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I think the one thing to remember is that Graziano proved himself to be one if the toughest fights out there, regardless of it being unfair the likes of Burley not getting that shot.
No one is disputing that Graziano gave Zale three wars.
What is in dispute is whether he should have been the challenger giving Zale those battles.Zale was 35 years old and over the hill his best years were behind him ,otherwise Graziano would not have merited a trilogy with him ,because he would have been ruthlessly dismantled.
Zale should have faced either Burley or Lamotta his number 1, and number 2 contenders.
In passing may I say that a prime Zale would have lost to both imo ,let alone a diminished 35 year old whose skills had rusted due to his Navy service
.I likewise beleive Graziano would have been painfully schooled by Burley and stopped by Lamotta.
Bottom line is Graziano beat a once fine champion who was visibly in decline ,he did it once in three fights,which other very good middleweights did he beat?
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