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Old 01-10-2010, 10:53 AM   #61
Beeston Brawler
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Default Re: Brit ESB Forum all-time British middleweight list?

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Do you know how they score their rankings? A lot of the time they seem to favour shorter careers with few losses over longer ones with more loses.
It's a funny thing.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

The idea is that you rack up points by beating opponents, if you have ten fights in a year you can score quickly, especially if the opponents are at or around your level.

Say if a couple of journeymen on decent winning runs face Frankie Gavin and George Groves next time out and lose, their drop won't be as much as other fighters, and conversely the points gained by the winning fighter will be higher than if they face guys on a run of stoppage losses.

The main problem, for me, is that it awards more points for a KO win than a points win, and also the points wins are calculated using the mean scores...... so if you hammer someone with a rock solid beard for 12 rounds and win 118-110 x 3, you get less credit than KO'ing a fighter that might have been beating you only to run out of gas.

Throw in a Williams/Martinez kind of dodgy scorecard as well.....

I think in general the ratings are pretty good, though there are obvious anomalies such as Holyfield being #5 at HW and DLH being #2 at WW.
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Old 01-10-2010, 11:03 AM   #62
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Default Re: Brit ESB Forum all-time British middleweight list?

Here we go:

1. Randy Turpin
2. Alan Minter
3. Terry Downes
4. Bob Fitzsimmons
5. George Gardner
6. Nigel Benn
7. Chris Eubank
8. Herol Graham
9. Tony Sibson
10. Michael Watson

Benn/Eubank - I agree with Gaz about Benn having much better form at the weight so Benn > Eubank.

Watson is at 10 ahead of Pyatt as he has a win over Benn and gave Eubank a really tough fight at MW.
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Old 01-10-2010, 11:04 AM   #63
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Default Re: Brit ESB Forum all-time British middleweight list?

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Eubank won H2H but Benn has deWitt, Barkley and Sims.
Eubank has Benn and Watson, and not much else at the weight But he did remain undefeated at the weight and I would rate his wins over Benn and Watson as on a par with Benn's wins over DeWitt, Barkley and Sims. But thats just my opinion

However, I am thinking I have been harsh on Benn when I think about it - he should be rated over Watson (who I have at 10). Time to change! (don't worry, I will edit my original post ).
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Old 01-10-2010, 11:09 AM   #64
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Default Re: Brit ESB Forum all-time British middleweight list?

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Eubank has Benn and Watson, and not much else at the weight But he did remain undefeated at the weight and I would rate his wins over Benn and Watson as on a par with Benn's wins over DeWitt, Barkley and Sims. But thats just my opinion
Yep, its close. I wouldn't argue too strongly either way TBH.

Quote:
However, I am thinking I have been harsh on Benn when I think about it - he should be rated over Watson (who I have at 10). Time to change! (don't worry, I will edit my original post ).
Thanks....
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Old 01-10-2010, 11:13 AM   #65
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Default Re: Brit ESB Forum all-time British middleweight list?

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Originally Posted by ishy View Post

Watson is at 10 ahead of Pyatt as he has a win over Benn and gave Eubank a really tough fight at MW.
I might have another look at Pyatt/ Watson, I'm pretty happy with my list down to 8 (given I decided to leave Gardner out) but I wasn't to pleased with the last 2.
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Old 01-10-2010, 01:31 PM   #66
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Default Re: Brit ESB Forum all-time British middleweight list?

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Its tricky because 2 of the four in that list won versions of the world title when there was 4 titles to go for. Harvey failed to win a (lesser) version when there was 2 belts, Sibson failed when there was one version (he was well past his prime for the Tate fight) and McAvoy never even got to Euro level at 160.
McAvoy was pretty much the man in a deep domestic division though.

Sibson was a ruler at Euro level which IMO equates to a alphabet title thesedays.

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Minters the only other fighter who has a shout IMHO.
Both IMO lack quality defences and lost when they stepped up. (except 1 fight with Turpin)

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The more I look at it, the more harvey is going to get in my list. I'm at 8/9 and starting to struggle.
Same here

Im redoing mine
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Old 01-10-2010, 01:50 PM   #67
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Default Re: Brit ESB Forum all-time British middleweight list?

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Sibson was a ruler at Euro level which IMO equates to a alphabet title thesedays.
Thats pretty much how I've done my heavy/ lt heavy and middle lists. An old time Euro champ the same as a modern world belt holder (other things being equal).

I was torn between Turpin and Minter for number 1, Minter has a decent number of world class wins, Turpin has less but has that win over Robinson
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Old 01-10-2010, 01:54 PM   #68
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Default Re: Brit ESB Forum all-time British middleweight list?

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Thats pretty much how I've done my heavy/ lt heavy and middle lists. An old time Euro champ the same as a modern world belt holder (other things being equal).

I was torn between Turpin and Minter for number 1, Minter has a decent number of world class wins, Turpin has less but has that win over Robinson
Well Turpin just got it because Robinson>Antuofermo x 2



I prefer Minter but I can't justify him over Turpin. I think the top part of the list is the easy part so the bottom bit

Downes
Graham
Benn
Eubank
Harvey
McAvoy
Watson
Gilroy
Sibson
Pyatt
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Old 01-10-2010, 01:59 PM   #69
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Default Re: Brit ESB Forum all-time British middleweight list?

If Fitz hadn't have won his title from such a great fighter then he'd be lower was well. I feel uncomfortable giving a high position based largely on 1 fight, but what else can you do when the other candidates havn't put together enough good wins to balance it out?
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Old 01-10-2010, 02:04 PM   #70
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Default Re: Brit ESB Forum all-time British middleweight list?

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If Fitz hadn't have won his title from such a great fighter then he'd be lower was well.
Leave Fitzy alone. He lacks the defences but many of the fights could have been title defences but are not confirmed.

Fitz cant be ranked top IMO. Win over Dempsy is massive.
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Old 01-10-2010, 02:04 PM   #71
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Default Re: Brit ESB Forum all-time British middleweight list?

Yep, Fitz only has NP Dempsey at the weight but that's such a great you've got to rank him high.

Same with George Gardner, he has a win over Barbados Joe Walcott.
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Old 01-10-2010, 02:07 PM   #72
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Default Re: Brit ESB Forum all-time British middleweight list?

Well turpin only really has Ray Robinson.
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Old 01-10-2010, 02:08 PM   #73
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Default Re: Brit ESB Forum all-time British middleweight list?

And some decent Euro opposition, he beat a guy who was ranked no.2 by the Ring as I posted earlier.
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Old 01-10-2010, 02:11 PM   #74
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Default Re: Brit ESB Forum all-time British middleweight list?

He did but fell short at world level in Olssen and Robinson rematch off the top of my head


(check out the retrospective thread everyone please)
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Old 01-10-2010, 02:16 PM   #75
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Default Re: Brit ESB Forum all-time British middleweight list?

I was checking on Boxrec this afternoon and Minters win over Sugar Ray Seales must have looked very impressive at the time. Minter stopped him when his only other 2 defeats were to Hagler and Eugene Hart, both on points.

(it turned out Seales fought a lot of his career with a detached retina)
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