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View Poll Results: How many does Liston win?
1 2 3.77%
2 2 3.77%
3 5 9.43%
4 9 16.98%
5 7 13.21%
6 9 16.98%
7 9 16.98%
8 4 7.55%
9 2 3.77%
10 4 7.55%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-30-2007, 12:26 PM   #31
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

But Liston himself did not know how old he was, either.
How reliable is the police report in 1950? Did they spend much time or cared about how old just another "misbehaving black man" was?

For each age you will be able to find a source that says he was that old. That his best friend said he was younger than Liston does not prove anything either; some people reach maturity much faster than others (both in mental and physical ways), there's no way to tell how old someone is within more than 4 years precision, especially past puberty.

If you look at Liston's fighting weight then you will see it gradually going up from barely scaling 200 pounds in 1953 to 213lb against Floyd Patterson in 1963. He then goes up to around 220lb between '66 and '70.

If you ask me, this is exactly the way most heavyweights fill out in weight between their 20's and 30's (1953-1963 200lb to 213lb) and past their 30's (up to 220+lb in the late 60's).



I will admit that how slow and ponderous Liston looks does support your theory that he was that old. But he might always have been that slow.
After that he goes

Last edited by BewareofDawg; 07-11-2006 at 05:57 PM.
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Old 09-30-2007, 12:34 PM   #32
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
But Liston himself did not know how old he was, either.
How reliable is the police report in 1950? Did they spend much time or cared about how old just another "misbehaving black man" was?

For each age you will be able to find a source that says he was that old. That his best friend said he was younger than Liston does not prove anything either; some people reach maturity much faster than others (both in mental and physical ways), there's no way to tell how old someone is within more than 4 years precision, especially past puberty.

If you look at Liston's fighting weight then you will see it gradually going up from barely scaling 200 pounds in 1953 to 213lb against Floyd Patterson in 1963. He then goes up to around 220lb between '66 and '70.

If you ask me, this is exactly the way most heavyweights fill out in weight between their 20's and 30's (1953-1963 200lb to 213lb) and past their 30's (up to 220+lb in the late 60's).

I will admit that how slow and ponderous Liston looks does support your theory that he was that old. But he might always have been that slow.
After that he goes

I have Sonny's fights on DVD. He was faster pre Ali for sure. The post Ali Liston was even slower. Even in his youth, Sonny was never fast handed. His hand speed was average at best. This is not to say Liston could not hit quick moving targets. His technique and accuracy were good, and his reach seemed to be about half the ring.

Regarding Sonny's age, information on a census taken when he was a child might help...assuming his family gave the correct information.
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Old 09-30-2007, 12:54 PM   #33
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Let's hear a little bit more about this one (i see it as 50/50 ish) with a lean on how Louis would do v the Liston Jab.
Louis and Liston do a lot of similar things. A matchup between two fighters of this type tends to come down to who has the fastest hands. Whether the fight unfolds as a jabfest or a mid range afair Louis will tend to beat Liston to the punch and this would be the critical factor.

Quote:
And a little bit about this pick would be good too
On the Tyson match up I tend to favour Liston because Tyson will be coming forward. Liston knew how to fight on the back foot and would likley give Tyson just enough room to hang himself.

Another factor worth taking into acount is that Liston was verry good on the inside and it is hard to say how Tyson would handel this if it became a factor.
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Old 09-30-2007, 12:56 PM   #34
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by brownpimp88
How does he do against larry holmes?
I think that he would probably finish what Earnie Shavers started.

Holmes might be ahead on the score cards when it hapened but I think that Liston would get him eventualy.
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Old 09-30-2007, 01:24 PM   #35
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Regarding Sonny's age, information on a census taken when he was a child might help...assuming his family gave the correct information.
Two years ago, the 1930 U.S. Census became public. In Sand Slough, Arkansas, there is no child in the Liston household listed as "Charles". These are pretty exhaustive and it does diminish the chances that Charles was any older than 34 when he faced Clay. The 1940 census is due to go public in 2015.

Arkansas may have a local census conducted more often....
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Old 09-30-2007, 01:26 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
I think that he would probably finish what Earnie Shavers started.

Holmes might be ahead on the score cards when it hapened but I think that Liston would get him eventualy.
Your analysis of Liston's chances against the HW champions are fairly congruent with mine. Although I would dispute the Louis choice that you and Pontius favor.

Holmes' has a better chance than most -but I don't favor him either.
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Old 09-30-2007, 02:02 PM   #37
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

I'd take Liston to beat: Johnson, Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier and Foreman

Close calls: Holyfield, Tyson and Lewis

Liston loses against: Ali and Louis
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Old 09-30-2007, 02:05 PM   #38
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

The results of the poll are interesting. We have the full spectrum of opinions on ten different choices. 35 posters have voted to date.
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Old 09-30-2007, 03:05 PM   #39
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Two years ago, the 1930 U.S. Census became public. In Sand Slough, Arkansas, there is no child in the Liston household listed as "Charles". These are pretty exhaustive and it does diminish the chances that Charles was any older than 34 when he faced Clay. The 1940 census is due to go public in 2015.

Arkansas may have a local census conducted more often....
This does seem to be the best evidence I have seen so far.

I managed to find that. I didn't realize the 1930 census was out. His immediate older brother Curtis was born in 1929, so he was born sometime in the early thirties.
Either way, he got knocked out in 1965.

Last edited by OLD FOGEY; 09-30-2007 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 09-30-2007, 03:08 PM   #40
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
The results of the poll are interesting. We have the full spectrum of opinions on ten different choices. 35 posters have voted to date.
I would note the biggest cluster of votes is in the 3-5 range.
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Old 09-30-2007, 03:42 PM   #41
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
I would note the biggest cluster of votes is in the 3-5 range.
Yes. So far. However 15 posters think Liston wins 7,8,9, or 10 matches. The leading number so far is for 7 matches. I wonder if any other heavyweight would have this type of spread at the top and the bottom?
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Old 09-30-2007, 04:34 PM   #42
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Yes. So far. However 15 posters think Liston wins 7,8,9, or 10 matches. The leading number so far is for 7 matches. I wonder if any other heavyweight would have this type of spread at the top and the bottom?
It does answer the question of who is the most overrated.
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Old 09-30-2007, 04:41 PM   #43
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
If would give Marciano the best chance of them, 40/60.
why's that?
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Old 09-30-2007, 05:47 PM   #44
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY
It does answer the question of who is the most overrated.
I rebuke that notion.

It's heard out here all the time, most notably by Spoon. I think it is too casual an assertion and it is careless as well. It begs the question of objectivity. Liston was a "thug" -a real one, not a fake one like Tyson and these shithead rappers polluting American culture with bravado. Liston was bad and many civilized intelligent people disdained him because they feared what he represented. I only ask that we remain open-minded in looking at boxers who with unlikable personalities.

In fact, in head-to-head competition, I am forced by objective reasoning to place Liston atop the biggest hill of vanguished hypothetical ex-champs. Ali is second. My arguments in defense of this admittedly controversial position have been noted before.

The problem with the detractors is a preoccupation with his brief reign and a failure to consider the context of his controversial connections, bad luck, and age. Spoon's arguments are just not very strong. You profess that he was KOd in 1965 as if that is any kind of meaningful measure. Spoon questions his wiring and makes the silly assertion that his heart was Tysonesque. That is crap.

Liston was an owned man. The strings attached to his career were held in formidable hands and Liston did as he was told. What happened in Maine has overwhelming evidence that, though circumstantial, cannot be dismissed. Someone asserted that Liston simply didn't see the shot from Ali. That is laughable. Liston wasn't stopped until he was about 39 years old (Martin) and was more of a functional drunk than a formidable destroyer. -And even in that fight, he was looking pretty damn good before the boom got dropped. Have you read Wepner's account of his fight with Liston?

During his prime years, Liston was also avoided. He had earned a title shot earlier than he got it and everyone knew it; he was forced to clean out the division to force Floyd's conscience. Meanwhile, he was getting older.

If you are considering hypothetical match-ups, it is right to look at two things first and foremost: strength and style. The record comes second... which is why I chose Pavlik to KO Taylor despite that clear fact that Taylor had faced far superior competition.

An objective anaysis of Liston's strength forces the conclusion that he was more of a complete HW than almost anyone before or after him. Listing his strengths would take far less time than listing his weaknesses... I see one, average speed. He could be a bit predictable as well, although usually he was predictably dominant.
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Old 09-30-2007, 06:07 PM   #45
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxmomer
why's that?
Because Marciano is, in my opinion, more durable than Frazier and Dempsey. Liston seems to be very good at blocking the left hook which puts Frazier at a big disadvantage whereas Marciano can come with the overhand right, uppercut or any other weird punch that he threw. Dempsey i think has fought pretty bad opposition and when he had better opponents he either struggled (Sharkey, Firpo) or lost (Tunney). I don't think he can overwhelm Liston nor outbox him over the distance, whereas i can see Marciano breaking Liston down over the distance. I can also imagine Frazier doing this, but i'm concerned he doesn't make it out of the early rounds.
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