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Old 12-20-2009, 09:42 AM   #16
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

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Originally Posted by My2Sense View Post
I'd say Foreman was the best of the three, as his win over Frazier is a bigger and more impressive achievement than any the other two had, and he also managed the best "comeback" of all of them later in his career. He's actually the only one to eventually regain the status he once held during his initial peak run.
Good post and i agree in general, but i want to comment on the last bit. Foreman wasn't as feared or seen as invincible during the 90's as he was during the 70's. He did retain the title, but was he really seen as the best HW in the world for any sustained period?

Tyson was seen as the best heavyweight in the world and even more feared/renowned in 95/96, until Holyfield ended that party prematurely.

Of the three, Liston is the only one who never regained that status, and i rank him below Tyson and Foreman.
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Old 12-20-2009, 09:45 AM   #17
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Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

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Where did you hear this?
I've heard George Foreman say that Liston was the only one who managed to back him up/absorb his best punches.

Liston also said that Foreman did not have one punch knockout power, but one punch killing power.

Never heard anything about either getting the better of any sparring sessions though.
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Old 12-20-2009, 09:47 AM   #18
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Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
Of the three, Liston is the only one who never regained that status.
Possibly, he didn't have enough left to achieve this, but Liston was fiercely black-listed and his chances were certainly more limited.

He was also the oldest of the three when he fell from grace, not irrelevant.
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Old 12-20-2009, 10:24 AM   #19
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Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

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Possibly, he didn't have enough left to achieve this, but Liston was fiercely black-listed and his chances were certainly more limited.

He was also the oldest of the three when he fell from grace, not irrelevant.
After the Clay bouts, no sane promoter was going to risk their money by investing in him. Too unpredictable and hard to sell. In that sense, Liston did not really get the chance to redeem himself. Then again, he got in that scenario in the first place because of his own actions.

Whose fall from grace would you rate worst?

Tyson loses one-sidedly to an afterthought, who turned out to be much better than expected. Gave all he had, but was still embarrassed. Reportedly out of shape, but looked in great shape to me.

Liston went in against a similar underdog perceived as fragile, got toyed with and quit after he couldn't hurt a blind Clay. Reportedly out of shape, but the fight never went far enough for that to matter.

Foreman went in against an aging former champion and gave it all, which didn't amount to much. He shot his bolt amateurishly and got KO'd in the mid rounds, despite supposedly having an iron chin.
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Old 12-20-2009, 10:33 AM   #20
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Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

I rank Liston below both of them. Both in accomplishments and H2H. Liston is entirely too overrated.
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Old 12-20-2009, 10:44 AM   #21
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Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

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After the Clay bouts, no sane promoter was going to risk their money by investing in him.
Well quite a few promoters did, but your point is basically my point. It's worth noting that he was affectively banned for losing, also.

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all from grace would you rate worst?
I would say that Liston/Foreman losing to Ali was less embarassing than Tyson's loss to Douglas but that Liston's manner of losing was wose. Depends what you (don't) like, basically.
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:07 AM   #22
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Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

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Well quite a few promoters did, but your point is basically my point. It's worth noting that he was affectively banned for losing, also.
It wasn't just about losing. Him quitting had a lot of people thinking the fight was fixed, i think. The second fight certainly polarized any fence-sitters that were left. Maffia rumors are very hard to get rid of. People still think today that Carnera's entire career was mob fabricated, or something.



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Originally Posted by McGrain
I would say that Liston/Foreman losing to Ali was less embarassing than Tyson's loss to Douglas but that Liston's manner of losing was wose. Depends what you (don't) like, basically.
Yep. All things considered, all three are pretty much on the same level now that i think about.
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:21 AM   #23
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Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
It wasn't just about losing. Him quitting had a lot of people thinking the fight was fixed, i think. The second fight certainly polarized any fence-sitters that were left. Maffia rumors are very hard to get rid of. People still think today that Carnera's entire career was mob fabricated, or something.
It was the second one that really scunnered him. Purses were with-held over the first one and there was an investigation, but it was written off.

It's after the second one he is done. Ring murders him repeatedly.




Quote:
Yep. All things considered, all three are pretty much on the same level now that i think about.
I think Foreman is spared, personally. No shame in losing to Ali like that. One thing I would say is that it is very harmful to his head to head capabilities IMO taken in tandem with his defeat by Young. But Foreman's was the least hurtful to me.

Out of Litson and Tyson's I find Tyson's crash more resounding.
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:23 AM   #24
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Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

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Never underestimate the value of a great jab. Sonny could be survived over the distance, but good luck pulling off the decision on the scorecards! Even at the end against Wepner, this was not somebody considered an easy touch for anybody who wasn't a peak GOAT. Tommy Morrison engineered a superb points win over a mature Foreman. But that version of Morrison cleanly loses the verdict to any edition of Liston who ever stepped foot in the ring. Straight punches tend to prevail over looping swings. George was never any kind of straight puncher.

Tyson used Cus D'Amato's peek a boo defense. We saw how well that worked against Sonny twice.

In his late career stoppage of the rugged Scrap Iron Johnson, an aging Liston showed that he could box effectively in retreat. That's an ability Foreman and Tyson never demonstrated, and suggests a greater versatility on Sonny's part than he is generally given credit for possessing.

WTF are you bringing up Tommy Morrison from Foreman's second career, he was in his ****ing 40s for christs sake.
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Old 12-20-2009, 02:26 PM   #25
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Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

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WTF are you bringing up Tommy Morrison from Foreman's second career, he was in his ****ing 40s for christs sake.
Mainly because of the notion that all one had to do to beat Liston was stick and run like Morrison did to George. But Whitehurst and Martin tried this with Sonny in bouts that took place over a decade apart, and both got essentially whitewashed in the scoring, even though Liston was rapidly aging (and widely rumored to be in his 40s) when Martin upset him. Leotis needed that knockout to win.
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Old 12-20-2009, 03:58 PM   #26
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Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

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As for comeback wins - is past prime Frazier, Lyle, Moorer (and losses to Young, Holyfield, Morrison, Schulz) really much better than Prime Rudduck, Bruno, Seldon, Golota (losses to Holy/Lennox)??
Yes, hell Briggs is a better win than Seldon. Who was really almost a filler joke at the time. Guy flopped so fast in that Tyson fight it's alleged as a quit job or something. Golota never really impressed me, he gets his name from a past-prime, lazy, unfocused Bowe. Besides, that was also a style thing to boot. His losses, were also reasonable better. Especially the Holyfield one, rather than getting TKOed, disqualified, or KOed by Lewis.
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Old 12-20-2009, 04:04 PM   #27
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Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

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I think Foreman is spared, personally. No shame in losing to Ali like that. One thing I would say is that it is very harmful to his head to head capabilities IMO taken in tandem with his defeat by Young. But Foreman's was the least hurtful to me.
Foreman was mentally weak post Ali. Even if he wanted to show hurt in the Lyle fight he just wasn't the same. Besides, he didn't let his body to acclimate to the PR weather, and fought under a completely new strategy of pacing himself. It just wasn't Foreman to do that and he neither the experience or tools to fixiate under this new method of fighting. All a combined recipe of disaster.

Foreman's H2H ability is underrated to the "Slick boxer" cure for him. In reality, Ali couldn't out-box him for 15 rounds. He had to out-tough him, out-think him, and then out-box him on the ropes after extensive tiring and in sparse exchanges. And we're talking about the GOAT here. Honestly, when did Liston really go about against great slick tall boxers with range? Like a Jimmy Young? Liston blew at cutting the ring off. In fact, he didn't know how to and didn't have the smarts to figure out how to. He just followed. This works against smaller, more limited fighters... even counter-punchers like Folley. But against slick movers like a Young... who is to say an upset wouldn't occur. Liston was excellent moving forwards and backwards, as long as he didn't have to move too much.
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Old 12-20-2009, 04:06 PM   #28
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Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

I think that Foreman is least hurt by the fall specifically because he was the GOAT, and I think that's fair, but I don't think the loss is meaningless.
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Old 12-20-2009, 05:14 PM   #29
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Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

I have Liston and Foreman in the same bracket around 8-11 and Tyson in the next one around 12-15. Their careers are pretty similar but what puts Liston and Foreman above Tyson are that both beat genuine Top20 hws while Tyson did not.
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:04 PM   #30
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Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

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I have Liston and Foreman in the same bracket around 8-11 and Tyson in the next one around 12-15. Their careers are pretty similar but what puts Liston and Foreman above Tyson are that both beat genuine Top20 hws while Tyson did not.
So you hold the Patterson win highly? Holmes not a genuine top HW? I know he was past it but still...
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