boxing
Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-21-2009, 02:41 AM   #31
bodhi
So I can die easy ...
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,491
vCash: 1337
Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
So you hold the Patterson win highly? Holmes not a genuine top HW? I know he was past it but still...
Yes, I do. I rate Patterson higher than most I think. I really don't believe in the "he was too small and had a glass jaw" ****. Yeah, he wasn't a big hw. About as big as Dempsey and bigger than Marciano ... He also was as often stopped as Tyson. Nobody talks about Tyson having a glass jaw. Youngest hw champ, first to regain the title and he has a more than solid resume.
Holmes is a top hw for sure but not the Holmes Tyson fought. That Holmes wasn't better than Witherspoon, Spinks and Co. Patterson was in his prime when Liston beat him in one two times and while Frazier was overweight and undertrained he was still at or near his prime too.
bodhi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 12-21-2009, 07:34 AM   #32
RockyJim
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,465
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

Does anyone take into account..when ranking Sonny as a top heavyweight champion
..that HE QUIT ON HIS STOOL against Ali in 1964...or his..."ahem"...KO loss to Ali up in Maine in 1965???
RockyJim is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 11:28 PM   #33
PetethePrince
Slick & Redheaded
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 14,395
vCash: 1200
Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyJim View Post
Does anyone take into account..when ranking Sonny as a top heavyweight champion
..that HE QUIT ON HIS STOOL against Ali in 1964...or his..."ahem"...KO loss to Ali up in Maine in 1965???
Not as much as they should. Yet he blasted Patterson out in 1 round twice so this is forgiven. Foreman, Frazier, Holmes, Marciano... at least these guys didn't quit.
PetethePrince is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 04:51 AM   #34
bodhi
So I can die easy ...
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,491
vCash: 1337
Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyJim View Post
Does anyone take into account..when ranking Sonny as a top heavyweight champion
..that HE QUIT ON HIS STOOL against Ali in 1964...or his..."ahem"...KO loss to Ali up in Maine in 1965???
As much as Tyson's biting and arm breaking out of frustration
bodhi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 07:53 AM   #35
Ezzard
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,035
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

I used to have Liston as top of the 3 until Foreman won his title back. yes George's matchmaing was great in his 2nd career but he still landed that KO punch. Liston and Tyson are much closer. I'd give Liston the edge.
Ezzard is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 03:12 PM   #36
Rubber Warrior
Resident ESB Soothsayer
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Greater GTA
Posts: 456
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
A lot of people here seem to rank Liston ahead of Tyson and Foreman. Not all, plenty don't in fact. But Liston is viewed very favorably. This seems to be due to his built up status in H2H scenarios. Somehow, Tyson gets the bully cast more than Liston does. Yes, Liston is an incredibly complete fighter. And has a solid resume and comp and unfortunately lost it all when the GOAT dethroned him. But losing should cost for something... losing twice against GOAT in an embarrassing fashion should too. Shouldn't it? Corruption, threats, conspiracy theories or not. That's not for us to judge, ****yze, or determine. Falling into obscurity should hurt his legacy.

A lot of his credit goes to cleaning up the division from 58-62. I credit him for that, but a lot of his credit is due to KOing a HOF Heavyweight like Patterson in the 1st round - not once but twice. Similarly, I've heard from a very respected poster that this is such an achievement that he should get massive credit for it. It's not indifferent to the Foreman vs Frazier showdown because it took Foreman 2 rounds and not 1. This was a showcase of power and destruction, though. Yes, Frazier under-estimated Foreman. Didn't train properly with the discipline he should have and came in about 8-10 pounds overweight. Joe Frazier thought he could slip that lazy jab and left hook Foreman to death. Didn't pan out that way. But frankly, under-estimating Foreman and being a little past your best doesn't do enough to discredit this demolish-ment against a top 10 HW of all time. Even if Frazier is made to order for Foreman, this doesn't effect this accomplishment just explain its. And Foreman, doing this to not only Frazier once but twice does this to Kenny Norton. Then you take the rest of his resume, accomplishments, and 90's championship run and you have one of the all time great Heavyweights. Also, Foreman won the HW Gold Medal. This is a nice bonus.

Tyson cleaned up the division in the 80's. On a resume basis, Liston vs Tyson is comparable I admit. But Tyson did this as a champion. Not Liston's fault he was ducked, but Tyson was cleaning up and defending his title. Liston gets props for his 1 round demolishment of Patterson, and although Patterson is a more accomplished HW than Spinks I still think Tyson's 1 round demolishment is equally as impressive.

Then take his 90's run. He loses to the best in Holyfield and Lewis, but beats Ruddock twice and regains the title a second time. Tyson gets cast as a bully with no heart but he came back from prison to win the title. Liston fell of the map after the second Ali fight. Yes, Liston was old, but Tyson did more and should be granted a higher ranking. No? At this moment, I have Liston ahead but with more thought I think Tyson deserves to be ranked above him.

Even guys like Frazier and Holyfield. Frazier, especially. Can Liston be ranked above him? Holyfield, although inconsistent, probably has the best resume of anyone HW besides Muhamamad Ali. Doesn't that count for something?

Now, I understand some rate with H2H. And this is what it comes down to. Does Sonny have ability, height, reach, to be such a monster to grant this status? Is he that much better than either Foreman or Tyson in terms of H2H?

Thoughts on my current anti-Liston rant. Honestly, he is a potential top 10 HW. A borderline top 10 HW. But I've seen him ranked as high as #3. And I've seen him in many people's top 5. Yes, I know when the poll was conducted Liston did not make the top 10, but... what's the fascination with the few respectable posters giving him such high praise. This high praise, isn't like the Tyson fanatics that are 14 year old boys that love KO highlights. This is coming from our best members.
Fans often voice popular belief without weighing the variables. How Liston can be rated over Foreman or Tyson to me, is mind-boggling.
Rubber Warrior is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 04:25 PM   #37
PetethePrince
Slick & Redheaded
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 14,395
vCash: 1200
Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubber Warrior View Post
Fans often voice popular belief without weighing the variables. How Liston can be rated over Foreman or Tyson to me, is mind-boggling.
Yeah, it comes down to H2H. In which case, maybe the Ali fights are looked at too lightly and maybe the Patterson/Williams fights are looked at too heavily. Yes, he was practically an alcoholic by 1962-65 but this might explain the pass and hyped ability some credit him for in terms of H2H.
PetethePrince is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 05:03 PM   #38
kosaros
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 13,326
vCash: 999
Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
A lot of people here seem to rank Liston ahead of Tyson and Foreman. Not all, plenty don't in fact. But Liston is viewed very favorably. This seems to be due to his built up status in H2H scenarios. Somehow, Tyson gets the bully cast more than Liston does. Yes, Liston is an incredibly complete fighter. And has a solid resume and comp and unfortunately lost it all when the GOAT dethroned him. But losing should cost for something... losing twice against GOAT in an embarrassing fashion should too. Shouldn't it? Corruption, threats, conspiracy theories or not. That's not for us to judge, ****yze, or determine. Falling into obscurity should hurt his legacy.

A lot of his credit goes to cleaning up the division from 58-62. I credit him for that, but a lot of his credit is due to KOing a HOF Heavyweight like Patterson in the 1st round - not once but twice. Similarly, I've heard from a very respected poster that this is such an achievement that he should get massive credit for it. It's not indifferent to the Foreman vs Frazier showdown because it took Foreman 2 rounds and not 1. This was a showcase of power and destruction, though. Yes, Frazier under-estimated Foreman. Didn't train properly with the discipline he should have and came in about 8-10 pounds overweight. Joe Frazier thought he could slip that lazy jab and left hook Foreman to death. Didn't pan out that way. But frankly, under-estimating Foreman and being a little past your best doesn't do enough to discredit this demolish-ment against a top 10 HW of all time. Even if Frazier is made to order for Foreman, this doesn't effect this accomplishment just explain its. And Foreman, doing this to not only Frazier once but twice does this to Kenny Norton. Then you take the rest of his resume, accomplishments, and 90's championship run and you have one of the all time great Heavyweights. Also, Foreman won the HW Gold Medal. This is a nice bonus.

Tyson cleaned up the division in the 80's. On a resume basis, Liston vs Tyson is comparable I admit. But Tyson did this as a champion. Not Liston's fault he was ducked, but Tyson was cleaning up and defending his title. Liston gets props for his 1 round demolishment of Patterson, and although Patterson is a more accomplished HW than Spinks I still think Tyson's 1 round demolishment is equally as impressive.

Then take his 90's run. He loses to the best in Holyfield and Lewis, but beats Ruddock twice and regains the title a second time. Tyson gets cast as a bully with no heart but he came back from prison to win the title. Liston fell of the map after the second Ali fight. Yes, Liston was old, but Tyson did more and should be granted a higher ranking. No? At this moment, I have Liston ahead but with more thought I think Tyson deserves to be ranked above him.

Even guys like Frazier and Holyfield. Frazier, especially. Can Liston be ranked above him? Holyfield, although inconsistent, probably has the best resume of anyone HW besides Muhamamad Ali. Doesn't that count for something?

Now, I understand some rate with H2H. And this is what it comes down to. Does Sonny have ability, height, reach, to be such a monster to grant this status? Is he that much better than either Foreman or Tyson in terms of H2H?

Thoughts on my current anti-Liston rant. Honestly, he is a potential top 10 HW. A borderline top 10 HW. But I've seen him ranked as high as #3. And I've seen him in many people's top 5. Yes, I know when the poll was conducted Liston did not make the top 10, but... what's the fascination with the few respectable posters giving him such high praise. This high praise, isn't like the Tyson fanatics that are 14 year old boys that love KO highlights. This is coming from our best members.
Very good post. Although I have Liston above Tyson I completely agree that Liston is overrated by some on here.

How I rank the 3 of them:

6. Foreman
10. Liston
14. Tyson
kosaros is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 05:13 PM   #39
PetethePrince
Slick & Redheaded
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 14,395
vCash: 1200
Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kosaros View Post
Very good post. Although I have Liston above Tyson I completely agree that Liston is overrated by some on here.

How I rank the 3 of them:

6. Foreman
10. Liston
14. Tyson
That seems fair, although a tad harsh on Tyson. I have to be honest, I have Liston ahead of Tyson (At least I do on the last list I made). I'm beginning to re-think that obviously. I was definitely influenced by some here. They made compelling arguments. Liston and Tyson are much closer to rank and gauge for me. Foreman just has to be ahead of them... I don't see how people dismiss his resume/legacy and ability H2H.
PetethePrince is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2009, 01:15 AM   #40
latineg
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,038
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
A lot of people here seem to rank Liston ahead of Tyson and Foreman. Not all, plenty don't in fact. But Liston is viewed very favorably. This seems to be due to his built up status in H2H scenarios. Somehow, Tyson gets the bully cast more than Liston does. Yes, Liston is an incredibly complete fighter. And has a solid resume and comp and unfortunately lost it all when the GOAT dethroned him. But losing should cost for something... losing twice against GOAT in an embarrassing fashion should too. Shouldn't it? Corruption, threats, conspiracy theories or not. That's not for us to judge, ****yze, or determine. Falling into obscurity should hurt his legacy.

A lot of his credit goes to cleaning up the division from 58-62. I credit him for that, but a lot of his credit is due to KOing a HOF Heavyweight like Patterson in the 1st round - not once but twice. Similarly, I've heard from a very respected poster that this is such an achievement that he should get massive credit for it. It's not indifferent to the Foreman vs Frazier showdown because it took Foreman 2 rounds and not 1. This was a showcase of power and destruction, though. Yes, Frazier under-estimated Foreman. Didn't train properly with the discipline he should have and came in about 8-10 pounds overweight. Joe Frazier thought he could slip that lazy jab and left hook Foreman to death. Didn't pan out that way. But frankly, under-estimating Foreman and being a little past your best doesn't do enough to discredit this demolish-ment against a top 10 HW of all time. Even if Frazier is made to order for Foreman, this doesn't effect this accomplishment just explain its. And Foreman, doing this to not only Frazier once but twice does this to Kenny Norton. Then you take the rest of his resume, accomplishments, and 90's championship run and you have one of the all time great Heavyweights. Also, Foreman won the HW Gold Medal. This is a nice bonus.

Tyson cleaned up the division in the 80's. On a resume basis, Liston vs Tyson is comparable I admit. But Tyson did this as a champion. Not Liston's fault he was ducked, but Tyson was cleaning up and defending his title. Liston gets props for his 1 round demolishment of Patterson, and although Patterson is a more accomplished HW than Spinks I still think Tyson's 1 round demolishment is equally as impressive.

Then take his 90's run. He loses to the best in Holyfield and Lewis, but beats Ruddock twice and regains the title a second time. Tyson gets cast as a bully with no heart but he came back from prison to win the title. Liston fell of the map after the second Ali fight. Yes, Liston was old, but Tyson did more and should be granted a higher ranking. No? At this moment, I have Liston ahead but with more thought I think Tyson deserves to be ranked above him.

Even guys like Frazier and Holyfield. Frazier, especially. Can Liston be ranked above him? Holyfield, although inconsistent, probably has the best resume of anyone HW besides Muhamamad Ali. Doesn't that count for something?

Now, I understand some rate with H2H. And this is what it comes down to. Does Sonny have ability, height, reach, to be such a monster to grant this status? Is he that much better than either Foreman or Tyson in terms of H2H?

Thoughts on my current anti-Liston rant. Honestly, he is a potential top 10 HW. A borderline top 10 HW. But I've seen him ranked as high as #3. And I've seen him in many people's top 5. Yes, I know when the poll was conducted Liston did not make the top 10, but... what's the fascination with the few respectable posters giving him such high praise. This high praise, isn't like the Tyson fanatics that are 14 year old boys that love KO highlights. This is coming from our best members.
in all your postz it alwayz comez back to 14 year old boys with you

what the **** is up with that
latineg is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2009, 01:23 AM   #41
PetethePrince
Slick & Redheaded
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 14,395
vCash: 1200
Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

Quote:
Originally Posted by latineg View Post
in all your postz it alwayz comez back to 14 year old boys with you

what the **** is up with that
Maybe when talking to you? I have no idea what you're talking about. Lame attempt at trying to be funny, most likely.
PetethePrince is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2009, 03:52 AM   #42
latineg
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,038
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
Maybe when talking to you? I have no idea what you're talking about. Lame attempt at trying to be funny, most likely.

first u say "maybe when talking to you"

then u stupidly contra**** yourself when u say, "i have no idea what your're talking about"

lame attempt trying to be smart

although it waz quite funny

lmfao
latineg is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2009, 04:32 AM   #43
ripcity
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: "Somebody may beat me, but they are going to have to bleed to do it."
Posts: 10,232
vCash: 827
Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

He's bettter than them.
ripcity is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2009, 05:46 AM   #44
Bioyhh
Riot Dog
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 85
vCash: 500
Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
Foreman was mentally weak post Ali. Even if he wanted to show hurt in the Lyle fight he just wasn't the same. Besides, he didn't let his body to acclimate to the PR weather, and fought under a completely new strategy of pacing himself. It just wasn't Foreman to do that and he neither the experience or tools to fixiate under this new method of fighting. All a combined recipe of disaster.

Foreman's H2H ability is underrated to the "Slick boxer" cure for him. In reality, Ali couldn't out-box him for 15 rounds. He had to out-tough him, out-think him, and then out-box him on the ropes after extensive tiring and in sp**** exchanges. And we're talking about the GOAT here. Honestly, when did Liston really go about against great slick tall boxers with range? Like a Jimmy Young? Liston blew at cutting the ring off. In fact, he didn't know how to and didn't have the smarts to figure out how to. He just followed. This works against smaller, more limited fighters... even counter-punchers like Folley. But against slick movers like a Young... who is to say an upset wouldn't occur. Liston was excellent moving forwards and backwards, as long as he didn't have to move too much.
This is an important point that seems be often overlooked these days. Foreman's loss to Ali just devastated him. He was not the same, confident, force of nature that he was before Zaire. It fairly amazing how, ten years apart, Ali not only defeated two of the most fearsome heavyweights in history, but he crushed them mentally in doing so. To his immense credit, Foreman recovered from his humiliation and rebuilt his reputation. It's a remarkable story. H2H pre-Rumble George puts Sonny to sleep, I think. Post-Rumble, but pre-retirement, I think Sonny could have stood a fair chance of knocking George out. Sonny and Tyson present a fascinating prime H2H possibility. One of them would be counted out, but which one? A coin toss I'd say.
Bioyhh is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2009, 02:41 PM   #45
PetethePrince
Slick & Redheaded
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 14,395
vCash: 1200
Default Re: Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

Quote:
Originally Posted by latineg View Post
first u say "maybe when talking to you"

then u stupidly contra**** yourself when u say, "i have no idea what your're talking about"

lame attempt trying to be smart

although it waz quite funny

lmfao

Not a contradiction, you're just not intelligent enough to realize this. I'm saying maybe I do when talking to you, but if I do it's not something I'm aware of (Hence the idea of what you're talking about).

Stop trolling in my ****ing thread.
PetethePrince is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump






All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2015