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Old 12-21-2009, 02:50 PM   #46
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea View Post
I honestly think Duran was capable of beating Robinson on that night. It would've likely been an upset that Robinson rebounded from, but that style of rough, uber-skilled clinch-fighting may've been exactly what was needed to take Robinson out of his comfort zone. I think Duran had the tools to pull off the upset if he was on the same form as he was for that fight. Again though, I'd fully expect Robinson to make the adjustments to get the win in a rematch. Hopefully Duran wouldn't have been in as pitiful condition for it as he was the Leonard rematch, though.
A prime Robinson combines quite much of what both Leonard and Hearns brought to the table when they beat Duran. Robinson is the favourite IMO, perhaps even a clear one. Great fight, though.
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Old 12-21-2009, 02:54 PM   #47
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

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Duran did some subtle things in the ring but he was far from a slickster.
What?! Have you ever seen Duran fight?!
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Old 12-21-2009, 03:19 PM   #48
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

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What?! Have you ever seen Duran fight?!
Yeah... a lot! Have you?

Duran is no doubt an all-time great P4P fighter. Let's not rewrite history though. Duran wasn't a pretty boy. He was no defensive wizard. He was accurate but he wasn't a technical wizard. Duran didn't confuse and frustrate opponents to the point that they didn't even want to throw punches. Guys like R. Leonard, P. Whitacker, Roy Jones Jr., and Floyd Mayweather fit in this category.

Duran had a ton of 1st round KO wins but against who? He might have looked like a "slickster" in some of his fights but not against the top fighters he faced. Duran won fights with pressure. Duran didn't stick and move. Duran stayed close, attacked the body, and imposed his will... you're trying to turn him into Willie Pep or something!
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Old 12-21-2009, 03:58 PM   #49
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

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Originally Posted by Hookie View Post
Yeah... a lot! Have you?

Duran is no doubt an all-time great P4P fighter. Let's not rewrite history though. Duran wasn't a pretty boy. He was no defensive wizard. He was accurate but he wasn't a technical wizard. Duran didn't confuse and frustrate opponents to the point that they didn't even want to throw punches. Guys like R. Leonard, P. Whitacker, Roy Jones Jr., and Floyd Mayweather fit in this category.

Duran had a ton of 1st round KO wins but against who? He might have looked like a "slickster" in some of his fights but not against the top fighters he faced. Duran won fights with pressure. Duran didn't stick and move. Duran stayed close, attacked the body, and imposed his will... you're trying to turn him into Willie Pep or something!
Duran wasn't a defensive fighter, but that doesn't mean that his defence wasn't excellent. It was always a means to the end of aggression; as you say Duran was a brawler after all. That aside, I can count on one hand the number of fighters I've ever seen slip punches better than he did. Against Barkley, Leonard, De Jesus particularly, he was virtually unhittable. He'd just effortlessly slip a jab and get to the inside.

Check out 21 seconds into this video of the third fight with De Jesus. De Jesus traps Duran in a corner with absolutely nowhere to go, and throws several fast head-shots. Duran avoids them all, spins De Jesus round and unloads.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtuoN_NEHNI[/ame]



Check out 4:20 to the end of the final round of Duran/Leonard I. Duran doesn't even bother throwing punches in this last round, and lets SRL get off on him all he wants. Leonard hits nothing but air.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNVCEBRv7so[/ame]



When he had to, Duran could showcase defensive excellence. At 135 he didn't have to concentrate on defence too much; he was so strong he could just bull inside and over-power his opponents. But don't let that fool you into thinking that he was just a crude slugger. The guy's head movement really was second to none, and the latter half of his career illustrates that.

There aren't many
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:05 PM   #50
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

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There are the obvious players, but an interesting dark horse is Basilio. Possibly the only man that might be able to handle Duran on the inside. I'm not saying he would, but it's one to think about.
Nice shout there definitly had the strength and ruggedness to stay on the inside with Duran and push him back. Also had the combination punching that could give Duran problems. Very tough fight but i honestly beleive Durans superior defence wins this. And i know Carmen was no mug when it came to defence but in the end he was more hittable than Duran was.

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Other than the usual suspects, Rodriguez would have given Duran fits IMO.
Definitly mixture of speed, movement and combination punching to give Duran fits, also i really like Luis's quick counters as his opponent advances that could keep Duran off him.

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Nah, SRL came mighty close fighting Duran`s fight.

Robinson would **** him up badly.
I thought Duran won it pretty handily myself.

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea View Post
I honestly think Duran was capable of beating Robinson on that night. It would've likely been an upset that Robinson rebounded from, but that style of rough, uber-skilled clinch-fighting may've been exactly what was needed to take Robinson out of his comfort zone. I think Duran had the tools to pull off the upset if he was on the same form as he was for that fight. Again though, I'd fully expect Robinson to make the adjustments to get the win in a rematch. Hopefully Duran wouldn't have been in as pitiful condition for it as he was the Leonard rematch, though.
I think Robinson as the strength and power to keep Duran from being all over him and has the speed and movement to keep away. However from watching films of a Welterweight Ray Robinson he was alot more offensive minded and was better IMO when he let his hands go in combinations now this would bode well against Duran. But i think Duran, whilst not matching Ray offensivly, is solider defensively and that could win him it. But what a fight it would be.

Some names i give a chance

Hearns - Obvious style advantage as the range and power to stay at distance and can pick Duran off from their. I would say Hearns KO8.

Napoles - Think he can pull it off but his paper skin puts doubt in my mind i think him and Duran are fairly similar, both guys come forward but combine their defence with their offence, both hit hard and in combinations and both have good chins. Even fight IMO.

SRR - Already discussed above

LMR - Already discussed above


just a shout here - Emile Griffith?
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:18 PM   #51
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

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Originally Posted by Hookie View Post
Yeah... a lot! Have you?

Duran is no doubt an all-time great P4P fighter. Let's not rewrite history though. Duran wasn't a pretty boy. He was no defensive wizard. He was accurate but he wasn't a technical wizard. Duran didn't confuse and frustrate opponents to the point that they didn't even want to throw punches. Guys like R. Leonard, P. Whitacker, Roy Jones Jr., and Floyd Mayweather fit in this category.

Duran had a ton of 1st round KO wins but against who? He might have looked like a "slickster" in some of his fights but not against the top fighters he faced. Duran won fights with pressure. Duran didn't stick and move. Duran stayed close, attacked the body, and imposed his will... you're trying to turn him into Willie Pep or something!

What, all the time? No, it is you that needs to watch more Duran.

Watch his patient dissection of Guts Ishimatsu.
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:32 PM   #52
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

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Originally Posted by itrymariti View Post
Duran wasn't a defensive fighter, but that doesn't mean that his defence wasn't excellent. It was always a means to the end of aggression; as you say Duran was a brawler after all. That aside, I can count on one hand the number of fighters I've ever seen slip punches better than he did. Against Barkley, Leonard, De Jesus particularly, he was virtually unhittable. He'd just effortlessly slip a jab and get to the inside.

Check out 21 seconds into this video of the third fight with De Jesus. De Jesus traps Duran in a corner with absolutely nowhere to go, and throws several fast head-shots. Duran avoids them all, spins De Jesus round and unloads.

When he had to, Duran could showcase defensive excellence. At 135 he didn't have to concentrate on defence too much; he was so strong he could just bull inside and over-power his opponents. But don't let that fool you into thinking that he was just a crude slugger. The guy's head movement really was second to none, and the latter half of his career illustrates that.

There aren't many
You showed me a clip of the 3rd fight with DeJesus... toward the end of the fight. DeJesus was already beat up. What about the 1st two fights? Duran went down in both of these fights! If DeJesus barely hit him, what's that say about Duran's chin? We all know that Duran had a good chin. DeJesus landed plenty on Duran.

Leonard landed plenty on Duran in all 3 fights, get real.

Barkley? Are you serious? This fight could have went either way.

I love that you love boxing so much... but I think you might be a little delusional when it comes to Roberto Duran.
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:38 PM   #53
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

Hey, I was a big Duran fan. Like I said, he is an all-time great. I'm just telling it like it is. I just don't think he was flawless in all categories like some of you are suggesting. He wasn't that hard to figure out but you had to be a great fighter to beat him because as a total package he was very good.

I'm not trying to make him out to be a limited brawler... he wasn't. He was very good in everything. I'm just saying that compared to guys like Robinson, Leonard, Whitacker, and some others he looked far from a technical wizard.
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:42 PM   #54
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

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First of all, the fight was very close. Duran fought the best fight he ever fought. Leonard fought well but he did not fight to the best of his ability.

So, the first person I will pick is a well prepared Sugar Ray Leonard. Leonard easily beat Duran in the rematch. I'm not saying he beat Duran at Duran's very best, but I do think the rematch was a good indication of what a fight between the best ever WW version of Duran vs. the best ever WW version of Leonard would look like.

Other great WWs that would beat this version of Duran?

Sugar Ray Robinson was the best ever at this weight.

Henry Armstrong would have an excellent chance of beating Duran at LW or WW.

Kid Gavilan had a head carved out of diamond. He was never stopped in 143 pro fights and Duran wouldn't stop him either. Gavilan had a considerable height and reach advantage. Both men had good speed but Gavilan was more elusive. Duran punched much harder. It's a pick-em fight imo.

Thomas Hearns crushed him at 154 and I don't see why he couldn't do it at 147Lbs.

Wilfred Benitez beat Duran at 154 and I think he would have an excellent chance at doing it at 147 as well.
I NEVER have seen that fight as close. Not when I saw it on the night it happened or the many times since then. I had Duran winning 11 of the rounds. The best though is from the 4 kings book when Leonard talks about his sorryass brother Roger charging Duran after the fight and Leonard said, "Duran just nailed him" one punch and Roger was out. And the Ring had Roger a top 10 jr-mid at that time. Duran beat Leonard after being Lt.weight champ for 7 years an then moving up. He beat him in his 13th year. In Leonard and Hearns 13th year they were getting their asses kicked by norris and a wide assortment for Hearns.
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:46 PM   #55
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

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I liked Duran a lot... but sometimes too much is made of his career pre-Leonard.

He beat Buchanan in a very dirty fight (KO13) but they never fought again.

He was dropped and beat by DeJesus (L10) but DeJesus waited a long time for a rematch. DeJesus dropped him in the rematch as well. Duran won the 2nd (KO11) and 3rd (KO12) fights.

He beat Palomino (W10) who had already lost to Benitez.

Instead of thinking he was one of the best WWs ever when he beat Leonard... try thinking he rose to the occasion that night and see how that fits ya!

"Montreal Duran" is that like "Tokyo Douglas"?
Purely ASSININE GIBBERISH!
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:46 PM   #56
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

Sugar Ray Leonard for one can beat the Duran from the first fight.

Others that come to mind Mayweather, Whitaker, Tszyu and obviously Hearns.

Not Sugar Ray Robinson, no way, no how. He struggled somewhat with Basilio, Duran eats him alive.
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:53 PM   #57
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

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Sugar Ray Leonard for one can beat the Duran from the first fight.

Others that come to mind Mayweather, Whitaker, Tszyu and obviously Hearns.

Not Sugar Ray Robinson, no way, no how. He struggled somewhat with Basilio, Duran eats him alive.
We must be in some kind of alternate universe. By the way even Leonard said that Duran made him miss more than anyone else and that includes Benitez. And judging from Benitez' currant state maybe they didn't all miss him after all. Hopefully Wilfred will be taken care of well by the Lord.
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:56 PM   #58
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

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You showed me a clip of the 3rd fight with DeJesus... toward the end of the fight. DeJesus was already beat up. What about the 1st two fights? Duran went down in both of these fights! If DeJesus barely hit him, what's that say about Duran's chin? We all know that Duran had a good chin. DeJesus landed plenty on Duran.
I'm not sure that's particularly relevant. I'm not saying the guy was literally unhittable. Jesus, even Sweet Pea and Ali went down a few times. Duran made mistakes early in the fight, and was made to pay by a very, very seasoned opponent. What's important is that for 90% of the second and third fights he repeatedly made De Jesus miss.

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Leonard landed plenty on Duran in all 3 fights, get real.
Well, yes, he landed. I mean, it's a boxing match. My point is that most of the time Duran was extremely slick. If he wasn't, Leonard would have just peppered and moved all night long: after all, he was much taller and had a very significant edge in reach. The only reason Duran was able to do anything against Leonard was because he slipped and went to the inside as soon as Leonard threw anything.

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Originally Posted by Hookie View Post
Barkley? Are you serious? This fight could have went either way.
Post your scorecard if you think it was that controversial.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. Duran was fighting someone with an almost comic size advantage over him. If you were new to the sport you might have thought it was some sort of circus act! Again, it was his world-class ability to make Barkley hit air and then counter that even kept him remotely in the fight, let alone winning it.

Seriously, Duran wouldn't have got anywhere near as far as he did without his defensive abilities. There's a big difference between a very strong, imposing Lightweight and somebody who can pitch a shut-out against De Jesus, walk all over Buchanan and go up in weight and beat Ray Leonard.
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:57 PM   #59
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

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Sugar Ray Leonard for one can beat the Duran from the first fight.

Others that come to mind Mayweather, Whitaker, Tszyu and obviously Hearns.

Not Sugar Ray Robinson, no way, no how. He struggled somewhat with Basilio, Duran eats him alive.
I think to put down Robinson like this is rediculous. I think this Duran could beat him but have NO doubt that Robinson was BY FAR except for Armstrong, the greatest welter taht ever lived and the welterweight prime Robinson would wipe out basilio in 10.
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Old 12-21-2009, 05:04 PM   #60
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

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Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe View Post
Sugar Ray Leonard for one can beat the Duran from the first fight.

Others that come to mind Mayweather, Whitaker, Tszyu and obviously Hearns.

Not Sugar Ray Robinson, no way, no how. He struggled somewhat with Basilio, Duran eats him alive.
Robinson was 137 years old when he fought Basilio (at MW) and he had already had a million fights.

You do know that at age 30 he was 128-1-2 1NC right? He wouldn't fight Basilio for another 6 years! Duran was 29 when he fought Leonard the first time.

The only loss Robinson had in 132 fights was a close decision to Jake Lamotta who Robinson went 5-1 (1) against lifetime.

Also, do you really think Duran wouldn't have problems with Basilio? Basilio was only stopped by one fighter in 79 pro fights and that wasn't until his 75th and 76th fights (vs. Gene Fullmer). Basilio beat Robinson 1 out of 2, Tony DeMarco, Billy Graham, and Ike Williams among others.

Take the blinders off people.
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