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Old 12-21-2009, 05:15 PM   #61
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

Back to Duran. I never said the man was a human punching bag. Duran was amazing!!! I just don't think he was quite as good as some of you make him out to be. Like I have said thruout... Duran was one of the best. Some of you are acting like he never lost DeJesus, Leonard, Hearns, Benitez, etc. though.

Sure, he slipped punches to get inside on Leonard and Barkley... he sure as hell wasn't jabbing his way in on guys way taller with way longer reaches. Sure, he had good head movement. He also wasn't hard to find and sometimes left himself open when throwing punches... just like plenty of fighters. There isn't anything wrong with it as long as you win.

To base all of this off of one fight is kinda crazy to me.

Why not ask if "Tokyo" Douglas could beat Ali?
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:52 PM   #62
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
Defensive, stick and move merchants. Duran nuthuggers claim he was past his best after this fight, didnt train properly, insert your excuse, but in reality when someone presented movement, speed and good defense he had nightmares. Whitaker, R Leonard, Benitez, Mayweather, amongst others. Plus Robinson and Hearns beat him for different reasons.

Other tough match ups that may well beat him include Galivan, Curry, Forrest, DLH, Quartey, Napoles
We didnt say it, Randy Gordon said it. And taking the point of view of a correspondent witnessing the two fighters first handcarries more weight than the opinions of an ESBer
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:23 AM   #63
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

Robinson and Hearns I'd favor over him.

Leonard and Benitez would always be interesting because of the difference in style, each one if they fight the right way and utilizing the right tactics might be able to pull it off, but they'd be the underdogs in my book rather than the favorites.

Whitaker might be able to play defense and outmove Duran, but I don't know if he would score enough in the meantime to have a prayer of taking it on the cards.

Aside from that, not bloody many. Not anyone else that I've seen enough footage of to feel comfortable favoring them.

By the way, I just have to laugh my ass off at people pulling out names like Tszyu or De La Hoya. Whatever you guys are smoking, you're getting your money's worth.
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:32 AM   #64
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

SRR for sure. Definitely a competitive bout but I have little doubt Ray would come out on top, whether it be by decision or late TKO.

Napoles has both the skill and punch, and I think he has a good chance if he's not cut too badly. Possibly Basilio too, as he also had the punch.

Emile Griffith as well. I mean, if he managed to outpoint Dick Tiger, twice...

Last edited by laxpdx; 12-22-2009 at 01:07 AM.
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Old 12-22-2009, 02:43 AM   #65
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

I hate to say this, but has anyone ever thought that Leonard might have had an off-night? I have to think that Duran is a bit overrated at WW. Yes, he beat Leonard, but has had off-nights before, and had his opposition been better, he would have lost.
Duran fought a great fight, but it's clear that SRL did not fight his fight. Palomino was on the decline, let's not forget, and Duran fought a few ham n eggers that he didn't exactly look great against. Let's not forget that Randy Turpin fought a great fight against Robinson the first time, but that was the highlight of his career.
I don't think that it's a coincidence that Duran never had a win that came close to ever being as big as this one. One great win doesn't make him the best WW ever: it just means he fought a great fight.
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Old 12-22-2009, 02:48 AM   #66
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

Cant go past Robinson but I'd also pick Gavilan and maybe Basilio.
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Old 12-22-2009, 03:57 AM   #67
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

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Originally Posted by Sister Sledge View Post
I hate to say this, but has anyone ever thought that Leonard might have had an off-night?
He was at his peak..less then a year before he had his best performance of his career up until that point and the probably the best overall performance of the rest of his career.

His conditioning was obviously top notch with the way he finished that fight and absorbed the punishment he received.

He had a bad night because the result didnt go his way...not because he wasnt prepared.

Quote:
I have to think that Duran is a bit overrated at WW. Yes, he beat Leonard, but has had off-nights before, and had his opposition been better, he would have lost.
Leonard is the 2nd best welterweight ever...Palomino is a very good champion who would have continued to prosper had it been a weaker era.

Thats not good enough for you? Thats pretty friggen good. Of course there were more names to take on at the time but Leonard was big scalp.


Quote:
Duran fought a great fight, but it's clear that SRL did not fight his fight
.

How is that clear?

My Pespsi challenge still stands for anyone who can find a fight of Leonard pre-Duran or for that matter any fight after the rematch up until his first retirement..where Ray used that amount of consistent movement, where he was up on his toes constantly to the point of almost running.
That WAS NOT his type of fight. He was far more of a boxer-puncher then a cute pure boxer. He never had any qualms about battling someone on the inside or being the aggressor. His fight was generally to switch between patient counter puncher and a more aggressive combo puncher when he saw fit. The fight he attempted the first time around.
He made adjustments against a clearly less prepared Roberto in the rematch and frustrated him to the point of making him quit. He certainly wasnt beating him up or schooling him until he had 1-1/12 big rounds just before the end.
You can see that either way if you want...Im not going to argue with people anymore. I choose to believe Duran wasnt the same kind of fighter that he was in the first fight but at the same time I take absolutely nothing away from Leonard. I just take a little less away from Duran then other people do because I think the evidence points to him not being in the same kind of shape physically or mentally.

Quote:
Palomino was on the decline, let's not forget,
Evidence?

Carlos acquitted himself very well less then 6 months earlier against Benitez. He looked fine in his fight with Duran.

Its fairly widely felt that Palomino was one of the those rare examples of a fighter who retired whilst just about at their peak.

Quote:
and Duran fought a few ham n eggers that he didn't exactly look great against.
He phoned in a couple performances and took on a straight up runner in Speedy which rarely make a fighter look good.
But its fairly obvious that he really came to the plate against the best fighters he faced at the weight...Starting with his brutal showing against top contender (albeit jnr welter contender) Brooks and ending with his pièce de résistance against Leonard in Montreal.

Quote:
Let's not forget that Randy Turpin fought a great fight against Robinson the first time, but that was the highlight of his career.
That comparison is a bit of stretch I reckon mate.


[/quote]I don't think that it's a coincidence that Duran never had a win that came close to ever being as big as this one. One great win doesn't make him the best WW ever: it just means he fought a great fight.[/quote]

No one is claiming that and check out the welterweight rankings the classic forum compiled to see how who we feel are the greatest at welter.

But that great performance is one of the best of any fighter...ever. And what this thread is about is asking who beats that version of Duran at welter. That list is very short.
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Old 12-22-2009, 04:23 AM   #68
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

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Originally Posted by WhataRock View Post
My Pespsi challenge still stands for anyone who can find a fight of Leonard pre-Duran or for that matter any fight after the rematch up until his first retirement..where Ray used that amount of consistent movement, where he was up on his toes constantly to the point of almost running.
That WAS NOT his type of fight. He was far more of a boxer-puncher then a cute pure boxer. He never had any qualms about battling someone on the inside or being the aggressor. His fight was generally to switch between patient counter puncher and a more aggressive combo puncher when he saw fit. The fight he attempted the first time around.
In the Olympics (if that counts), Leonard was practically running by default, particularly against Limasov. Obviously, in the second Duran fight, he had a lot more movement. So I think the ability was there. It's a good point you make, though, since pretty much all of Leonard's wins as a pro pre-Duran (including vs. Benitez) involved stand-up boxing/punching more than anything else, and Duran just took that all away from him in Montreal.
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Old 12-22-2009, 04:26 AM   #69
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

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Originally Posted by The Wanderer View Post

By the way, I just have to laugh my ass off at people pulling out names like Tszyu or De La Hoya. Whatever you guys are smoking, you're getting your money's worth.
I think you are underestimating Tszyu horrifically.

The man had a top 10 ATG level skillset and is capable of either brutalising Duran or even clowning him with a masterful boxing performance.

The man was awe-inspiring like a prime Roy Jones Jr, even with his more refined style.
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Old 12-22-2009, 04:39 AM   #70
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

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Originally Posted by itrymariti View Post
In the Olympics (if that counts), Leonard was practically running by default, particularly against Limasov. Obviously, in the second Duran fight, he had a lot more movement. So I think the ability was there. It's a good point you make, though, since pretty much all of Leonard's wins as a pro pre-Duran (including vs. Benitez) involved stand-up boxing/punching more than anything else, and Duran just took that all away from him in Montreal.
He was doing that a little more then and yeah most definitely the potential was there as he showed again in the Hagler fight and in others when he came back and was fighting at the higher weight.

But even then I remember quite clearly being the aggressor early on against the Ruski he faced. And I believe that was Lisamov.
Im fairly certain he only got on his bike later on in the fight have really standing his crowd and putting the Soviet bloke under the pump earlier on.

He went to war with the Cuban bloke at times and kind of toyed with whoever he fought in the semi, some white european cant recall his name.
Clinton McKenzie he certainly didnt fight like the did against Duran in the rematch..again more efficient shuffling and short bouncing rather then constant and sweeping movements..That fight was more of shootout at range, kind of like the Benitez fight.

I might be off but I honestly cant recall him employing that style all that much even in the Olympics.

By in large as a pro that was not his style or tactical approach to fighting. That adjustment in strategy was made in training for the rematch and it worked well. I just dont feel it was his fight..he fought his fight in the first one and it didnt work so well.
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Old 12-22-2009, 04:50 AM   #71
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

It's also strange that Leonard chatted a lot in the run-up to the fight about how he'd seen Duran's fights with Viruet, and how he was going to be constantly up on the balls of his feet, moving and circling to the right etc.
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Old 12-22-2009, 05:08 AM   #72
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

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Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
Nah, SRL came mighty close fighting Duran`s fight.

Robinson would **** him up badly.
Silly comment. Please tell me what fights of Robinson's you have actually seen at welterweight?

No-one "****s him up badly" at 147. The guy dominated prime Ray Leonard for 12 rounds. It doesn't get much better than that. And his insanely good inside game would be horrible for Robinson to deal with. If SRR won, he would have to go to hell and back first.
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Old 12-22-2009, 05:37 AM   #73
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

How can Chinahand use a 37 year old Robinson against Basilo to validate a win for Duran V Robinson?

People can say the Duran that lost to Kirkland Lang in 1982 gets KO'd in 4 by Robinson, or the Duran that looked shot to pieces in Leonard III would get killed by Robinson.
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:18 AM   #74
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

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How can Chinahand use a 37 year old Robinson against Basilo to validate a win for Duran V Robinson?
There's no shame in losing to Carmen
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:18 AM   #75
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Default Re: What welterweights would you pick to beat the Duran of the first Leonard fight?

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Originally Posted by Sister Sledge View Post
I hate to say this, but has anyone ever thought that Leonard might have had an off-night? I have to think that Duran is a bit overrated at WW. Yes, he beat Leonard, but has had off-nights before, and had his opposition been better, he would have lost.
Duran fought a great fight, but it's clear that SRL did not fight his fight. Palomino was on the decline, let's not forget, and Duran fought a few ham n eggers that he didn't exactly look great against. Let's not forget that Randy Turpin fought a great fight against Robinson the first time, but that was the highlight of his career.
I don't think that it's a coincidence that Duran never had a win that came close to ever being as big as this one. One great win doesn't make him the best WW ever: it just means he fought a great fight.

good post
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