Ron Lyle...

Blacc Jesus · 10-04-2007, 03:33 PM

Thoughts on him?

And as far as the hardest hitters during the 70's where did he rank?

PowerPuncher · 10-04-2007, 03:43 PM

Started boxing very late - 27/28? Obviously very big and strong. Very good power. What is underated is his handspeed, combinations and boxing skill.
Against the best fighters he didnt look devastating. Powerwise he has to rank below Shavers (despite beating him), Foreman, Frazier.

His hand speed was excellent for a man his size. He achieved more in his losses than he did in his ways - like Vitali Klitchko

Lets look at his big losses:

Ali - was winning before Ali pulled out the TKO
Foreman - put Foreman down I forget how many times near his prime

Quarry - Quarry proved the better boxer that night, Lyle was only 2 years into his career

Young (Twice) - schooled pretty much

Wins (no great 1s to be fair):

Shavers - battle of the punchers
Banavena - good brawler
Ellis - decent contender probably past it
Bugner/Middleton/Garcia/Kirkman - all decent

The Kurgan · 10-04-2007, 03:43 PM

I think he hit just a little less hard than Quarry, judging by their respective performances against Shavers. A top 10 hitter of the decade, certainly, but maybe not quite top 5. With Lyle, it was as much his skill in landing the blows as his actual power that led to his success.

Ranking him is hard: in his prime, he could win or lose against top 10 opposition (Shavers, Quarry) or perform very well against top 5 opposition (Foreman, Ali). He came very close to out-brawling the best brawler of his generation and out-boxing the best boxer.

I rank him at about 7-9 in the decade. He was a top drawer contender who was always overlooked by the media, which couldn't see past his age and quiet demeanour.

PowerPuncher · 10-04-2007, 03:45 PM

Having said all this if he started boxing as a teenager - he may have been a truly great fighter

The Kurgan · 10-04-2007, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Shavers - battle of the punchers
Banavena - good brawler
Ellis - decent contender probably past it
Bugner/Middleton/Garcia/Kirkman - all decent

I think that's a very good resume for a contender. Shavers had a very difficult style for Lyle; Bonavena was always awkward and dangerous; Ellis was past his best, but not quite shot; as you note, his other wins were good in the context of the era.

The Bugner win is often overlooked: Bugner still had a lot left, Lyle was at the end of his career, and Ron managed to force out the most exciting fight of Bugner's career. I've never seen Bugner try so hard; the big Joe that Lyle beat was a much more vicious and aggressive boxer than the timid "Just glad to be there" Bugner that Ali and Frazier couldn't put away.

The Kurgan · 10-04-2007, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Having said all this if he started boxing as a teenager - he may have been a truly great fighter

Possibly. Or maybe it was his near-death experience and his mature adult body (Lyle's strength is often overlooked, but it bothered the hell out of Foreman) that made him such a competant contender in the first place.

Duodenum · 10-04-2007, 06:32 PM

Leroy Caldwell stated that Lyle's punching power was on a par with Foreman's. They had other common opponents who may or may not agree with that. For whatever it's worth, Big George himself has stated on camera that Ron hit him the hardest of any of his opponents, and Foreman did face a number of other respectable punchers. Nobody else was ever able to power George to the deck early the way Lyle did twice. (Considering Foreman's chin, and the fact Holyfield's and Cooney's best shots couldn't dent it, that's no small feat.) If Lyle had tried to box George as he did Ali, Ron might have pulled off a late win (especially with all that power he had).

Lyle's legendary classic against Shavers is readily available on-line, and is probably the greatest win of his career. In a 25 year span of Earnie's career covering 75 fights, Ron was the only one to drop Shavers for the full count. (Ignore the TKO designation itemized on boxwreck. That was a clean ten-count win for Lyle, the only one registered over Earnie between Stander in 1970, and Yates in 1995.)

Because of his late start, it's probably safe to assume that he never sustained anything in the way of significant brain damage, and that late start probably contributed to his being able to compete successfully at a later age. He decisioned LeDoux over ten rounds for his final major win at age 38 (wobbling Scott repeatedly at a time when very few were able to do that to him), and finished off his career with a quartet of knockout wins at age 54! Although he was outslugged by Foreman and outboxed by Young, he did outbox Ellis and Bugner over 12, and outslugged Shavers.

For all his knockout power and quick finishing ability, he also had excellent mobility and could pace himself over longer distances very well. (Perhaps this had something to do with living at Denver altitude.)

Yes, he was schooled by Quarry and Young at their very best, but these experiences probably helped to enhance his own skills. At his peak, I'm convinced he would have worn down and knocked Cooney out, something I don't believe Norton could have ever done. Ron was certainly tougher than Kenny, and more versatile. Peak for peak, Lyle may have been superior to Norton, and I'm confident he would have beaten Kenny, head-to-head. (When Norton discovered somebody could hurt him, he fell apart mentally, something not true for Lyle at his best.)

Unlike Norton, Iron Bite and Chinnox, Ron could also get off the floor to win, as he proved against Shavers and LeDoux.

I tend to think of Lyle as a boxer-puncher, more of a stylist who could slug than a slugger who could box. I don't think of his approach to boxing in predatory terms. He wore down Shavers by counterpunching off the ropes, a suicidal tactic for anybody else, and an indication Ron might have been able to knock out Foreman as Ali did in Kinshasa.

Some hold the fact that he was schooled twice by Young against him, but if Jimmy hadn't been turned into a bloody mess against Cooney, and had entered his match with Gerry in top condition, then that would have likely been the end of Cooney's undefeated streak.

Ron Lyle could very well have been the 1972 Olympic HW Gold Medalist if he'd remained in amateur boxing for two more years. He could well be the most successful professional heavyweight to ever enter the punch for pay ranks past age 30.

ChrisPontius · 10-04-2007, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Kurgan

I think he hit just a little less hard than Quarry, judging by their respective performances against Shavers.

I would say more than just a little less hard.
Quarry laid Shavers out in the first round.

My footage of Lyle-Shavers is not in the greatest quality, but from memory - Lyle landed a lot of shots on him and it still took him into the 6th to finally take his weak-chinned opponent out.

I am not impressed by Lyle's power. Almost all of his fights went the distance, - in losing fashion i might add.
Probably his most impressive showing was against Foreman, dropping him twice and Foreman being somewhat lucky that the round ended after the second knockdown. However, Foreman in his first career was also dropped by Ali and Young, neither of whom hit hard. You can say that those were due to exhaustion, but Foreman-Lyle was fought at a very high pace (higher than most of his other fights) and Foreman didn't look in the best shape, whose to say he wasn't tired there as well?

Blacc Jesus · 10-04-2007, 07:13 PM

Thanks for the replies all. I find it interesting that Quarry hits harder than Lyle.
So is Lyle's power somewhat overrated?

ChrisPontius · 10-04-2007, 08:14 PM

It's there to see.

Look at his biggest fights:

Quarry - went the distance.
Bonavena - went the distance
Ellis - went the distance
Young - went the distance
Ali - he was knocked out
Shavers - he knocked him out in 6, but many (mediocre) fighters knocked Shavers quicker and he landed plenty of leather on him, they were toe-to-toe all of the time.
Foreman - he was knocked out
Young rematch - went the distance

So there you go. Of all his big fights, he only scored on KO over a fighter who has a very weak chin.
The Bugner KO was impressive though, considering Bugner was rather durable. Bugner was an average fighter nonetheless.

The Kurgan · 10-05-2007, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blacc Jesus

Thanks for the replies all. I find it interesting that Quarry hits harder than Lyle.
So is Lyle's power somewhat overrated?

No, Quarry's power is underrated. Put Quarry in with the Foreman of 1976, and Quarry could knock Big George spark out. Even in their primes, Quarry's power would be a risk for Foreman (or anyone). Quarry may have had circus-small arms, but they were like cougar magnums: small, but powerful. It's strange, because you never see Quarry on any "hardest hitter" lists, yet when he planted his feet he hit like a mule.

The Kurgan · 10-05-2007, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

It's there to see.

Look at his biggest fights:

Quarry - went the distance.
Bonavena - went the distance
Ellis - went the distance
Young - went the distance
Ali - he was knocked out
Shavers - he knocked him out in 6, but many (mediocre) fighters knocked Shavers quicker and he landed plenty of leather on him, they were toe-to-toe all of the time.
Foreman - he was knocked out
Young rematch - went the distance

So there you go. Of all his big fights, he only scored on KO over a fighter who has a very weak chin.
The Bugner KO was impressive though, considering Bugner was rather durable. Bugner was an average fighter nonetheless.

The thing is, I'll excuse this post, because it's quite apparent that you haven't seen most of the fights that you talk about.

ChrisPontius · 10-05-2007, 02:07 PM

Right. Say i had never seen him fight, how does that change that all of his big fights that i listed going the distance ?

He was impressive against Foreman but he was also the only person in history to be put out of the fight by a single punch from the light-hitting Ali.

The Kurgan · 10-05-2007, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

Right. Say i had never seen him fight, how does that change that all of his big fights that i listed going the distance ?

It doesn't, but of course that wasn't the point I made. If you'd seen him fight, you'd know the Bugner fight was stopped not as a result of Lyle's power, but a cut. If you'd seen him fight, you'd have known that Lyle didn't plant his feet for most of the Shavers fight, and by the time he did Lyle was already tired. That was what I was addressing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

He was impressive against Foreman but he was also the only person in history to be put out of the fight by a single punch from the light-hitting Ali.

I know this is well below par for you. Considering (a) your avatar, and (b) your knowledge of boxing, you should know this statement is utter bullshit.

Bummy Davis · 10-05-2007, 02:53 PM

Ron Lyle was a decent puncher, He struggled to KO many who were KO'd before him and after and taken the distance Ellis,Middleton,Bonavena,Peralta,Lou Baily,Bob Stallings,Manual Ramos,Wendell Newton. Lyle was another guy who had the look,the built and the Jail REP but was he a puncher, no, he ko'd Shavers who was stopped before the Lyle fight and stopped quicker, Lyle had the Look ,like Liston,Foreman,Sam Peter,Golota, imposing but Quarry gave him a beating. Lyle looked like a puncher vs Foreman but George avoided Quarry and other than a shot Frazier avoided punchers

10-04-2007, 03:33 PM	#1
Blacc Jesus . ESB Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 835 vCash: 1000	Ron Lyle... Thoughts on him? And as far as the hardest hitters during the 70's where did he rank?
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10-04-2007, 03:43 PM	#2
PowerPuncher ESB Junkie East Side VIP Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 30,729 vCash: 1000	Re: Ron Lyle... Started boxing very late - 27/28? Obviously very big and strong. Very good power. What is underated is his handspeed, combinations and boxing skill. Against the best fighters he didnt look devastating. Powerwise he has to rank below Shavers (despite beating him), Foreman, Frazier. His hand speed was excellent for a man his size. He achieved more in his losses than he did in his ways - like Vitali Klitchko Lets look at his big losses: Ali - was winning before Ali pulled out the TKO Foreman - put Foreman down I forget how many times near his prime Quarry - Quarry proved the better boxer that night, Lyle was only 2 years into his career Young (Twice) - schooled pretty much Wins (no great 1s to be fair): Shavers - battle of the punchers Banavena - good brawler Ellis - decent contender probably past it Bugner/Middleton/Garcia/Kirkman - all decent
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10-04-2007, 03:43 PM	#3
The Kurgan Emeritus Status Barbarian East Side VIP Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scotland Posts: 10,773 vCash: 628	Re: Ron Lyle... I think he hit just a little less hard than Quarry, judging by their respective performances against Shavers. A top 10 hitter of the decade, certainly, but maybe not quite top 5. With Lyle, it was as much his skill in landing the blows as his actual power that led to his success. Ranking him is hard: in his prime, he could win or lose against top 10 opposition (Shavers, Quarry) or perform very well against top 5 opposition (Foreman, Ali). He came very close to out-brawling the best brawler of his generation and out-boxing the best boxer. I rank him at about 7-9 in the decade. He was a top drawer contender who was always overlooked by the media, which couldn't see past his age and quiet demeanour.
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10-04-2007, 03:45 PM	#4
PowerPuncher ESB Junkie East Side VIP Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 30,729 vCash: 1000	Re: Ron Lyle... Having said all this if he started boxing as a teenager - he may have been a truly great fighter
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10-04-2007, 06:32 PM	#7
Duodenum Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,700 vCash: 1000	Re: Ron Lyle... Leroy Caldwell stated that Lyle's punching power was on a par with Foreman's. They had other common opponents who may or may not agree with that. For whatever it's worth, Big George himself has stated on camera that Ron hit him the hardest of any of his opponents, and Foreman did face a number of other respectable punchers. Nobody else was ever able to power George to the deck early the way Lyle did twice. (Considering Foreman's chin, and the fact Holyfield's and Cooney's best shots couldn't dent it, that's no small feat.) If Lyle had tried to box George as he did Ali, Ron might have pulled off a late win (especially with all that power he had). Lyle's legendary classic against Shavers is readily available on-line, and is probably the greatest win of his career. In a 25 year span of Earnie's career covering 75 fights, Ron was the only one to drop Shavers for the full count. (Ignore the TKO designation itemized on boxwreck. That was a clean ten-count win for Lyle, the only one registered over Earnie between Stander in 1970, and Yates in 1995.) Because of his late start, it's probably safe to assume that he never sustained anything in the way of significant brain damage, and that late start probably contributed to his being able to compete successfully at a later age. He decisioned LeDoux over ten rounds for his final major win at age 38 (wobbling Scott repeatedly at a time when very few were able to do that to him), and finished off his career with a quartet of knockout wins at age 54! Although he was outslugged by Foreman and outboxed by Young, he did outbox Ellis and Bugner over 12, and outslugged Shavers. For all his knockout power and quick finishing ability, he also had excellent mobility and could pace himself over longer distances very well. (Perhaps this had something to do with living at Denver altitude.) Yes, he was schooled by Quarry and Young at their very best, but these experiences probably helped to enhance his own skills. At his peak, I'm convinced he would have worn down and knocked Cooney out, something I don't believe Norton could have ever done. Ron was certainly tougher than Kenny, and more versatile. Peak for peak, Lyle may have been superior to Norton, and I'm confident he would have beaten Kenny, head-to-head. (When Norton discovered somebody could hurt him, he fell apart mentally, something not true for Lyle at his best.) Unlike Norton, Iron Bite and Chinnox, Ron could also get off the floor to win, as he proved against Shavers and LeDoux. I tend to think of Lyle as a boxer-puncher, more of a stylist who could slug than a slugger who could box. I don't think of his approach to boxing in predatory terms. He wore down Shavers by counterpunching off the ropes, a suicidal tactic for anybody else, and an indication Ron might have been able to knock out Foreman as Ali did in Kinshasa. Some hold the fact that he was schooled twice by Young against him, but if Jimmy hadn't been turned into a bloody mess against Cooney, and had entered his match with Gerry in top condition, then that would have likely been the end of Cooney's undefeated streak. Ron Lyle could very well have been the 1972 Olympic HW Gold Medalist if he'd remained in amateur boxing for two more years. He could well be the most successful professional heavyweight to ever enter the punch for pay ranks past age 30.
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10-04-2007, 07:13 PM	#9
Blacc Jesus . ESB Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 835 vCash: 1000	Re: Ron Lyle... Thanks for the replies all. I find it interesting that Quarry hits harder than Lyle. So is Lyle's power somewhat overrated?
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10-04-2007, 08:14 PM	#10
ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 East Side VIP Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Holland Posts: 11,749 vCash: 238	Re: Ron Lyle... It's there to see. Look at his biggest fights: Quarry - went the distance. Bonavena - went the distance Ellis - went the distance Young - went the distance Ali - he was knocked out Shavers - he knocked him out in 6, but many (mediocre) fighters knocked Shavers quicker and he landed plenty of leather on him, they were toe-to-toe all of the time. Foreman - he was knocked out Young rematch - went the distance So there you go. Of all his big fights, he only scored on KO over a fighter who has a very weak chin. The Bugner KO was impressive though, considering Bugner was rather durable. Bugner was an average fighter nonetheless.
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10-05-2007, 02:07 PM	#13
ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 East Side VIP Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Holland Posts: 11,749 vCash: 238	Re: Ron Lyle... Right. Say i had never seen him fight, how does that change that all of his big fights that i listed going the distance ? He was impressive against Foreman but he was also the only person in history to be put out of the fight by a single punch from the light-hitting Ali.
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10-05-2007, 02:53 PM	#15
Bummy Davis Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: New York Posts: 8,179 vCash: 1000	Re: Ron Lyle... Ron Lyle was a decent puncher, He struggled to KO many who were KO'd before him and after and taken the distance Ellis,Middleton,Bonavena,Peralta,Lou Baily,Bob Stallings,Manual Ramos,Wendell Newton. Lyle was another guy who had the look,the built and the Jail REP but was he a puncher, no, he ko'd Shavers who was stopped before the Lyle fight and stopped quicker, Lyle had the Look ,like Liston,Foreman,Sam Peter,Golota, imposing but Quarry gave him a beating. Lyle looked like a puncher vs Foreman but George avoided Quarry and other than a shot Frazier avoided punchers
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