Leonard - Best Boxer In Last 30 Yrs

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by Thad Spencer

Yeah, Leonard's win against Hearns was very unimpressive. Leonard was Hearns' punching bag for 10 of the 14 rounds. A weight drained Hearns got tired from beating the crap out of Ray. At 154 Hearns would have won about 13 or 14 rounds and a decision.

Well you've certainly hooked Rooster

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by redrooster

yeah, Hearns would have no problem at 154. no way leonard could win.

Rooster,

Why are you damn critical of Leonard? I'm not trying to start a heated debate here, but I'm just curious as to why you have such a bone to pick with him. Okay, I suppose we could all make criticisms if we wanted to. I agree that Leonard lost his rematch with Hearns. I also think the Hagler fight was very close, but do you really feel that these are reasons to deny him all time great status? The guy was a gold medalist, he beat a very good fighter in Wilfred Benitez. He was behind on points against another all time great in Thomas Hearns, but came back to beat him by stoppage. He came back from a hard fought loss against Duran to beat him twice after. The Hagler fight could have gone either way in terms of a decision, but Leonard was rerturning from a long layoff. The Don Lalonde win wasn't too bad either.

What seems to be the big problem?

[Bill Butcher]

Dont bother with rooster, when it comes to leonard the guy is in a world of his own.

Just because srl came out on top vs the fab 4 who all could have fought & won in any era he doesnt like it.

He talks about facts but he ignores the most important facts which are leonard beat them all, fact.

He says duran was out of shape for fight 2 & srl shouldnt get credit for the win but, listen to this.....
He says norris beat a very good srl BECAUSE of how srl looked vs duran in fight 3


talk about making an argument to suit yourself.
anybody could have kept on their toes for 12 vs duran in 1989, that fight didnt mean srl wasnt the fighter he used to be, it just showed how far the great duran had slipped.

You cany say norris beat prime srl if you cant admit srl beat prime duran.

Its all personal opinion of course but roosters is WAY WAY off when it comes to leonard.

Most people see him as 1 of the atg`s, why cant you ?

You can pick holes in any boxer in history, even srr if you manipulated things enough, get my point rooster.

1 more thing... leonard vs hagler. fucking beautiful
thats 1 fight I NEVER tire of watching, historic brilliance & it would have been even worse for marvin had they fought in 82, personal opinion of course.

[Minotauro]

Originally Posted by TBooze

I loathe Leonard, but would agree:

To 30 pro fighters who turned pro from 1976 onwards:

30 James Toney
29 Ronald 'Winky' Wright
28 Orlando Canizales
27 Mike Tyson
26 Sot Chitalada
25 Jeff Chandler
24 Lennox Lewis
23 Aaron Pryor
22 Myung Woo Yuh
21 Jung Koo Chang
20 Kostya Tszyu
19 Brian Mitchell
18 Jeff Fenech
17 Salvador Sanchez
16 Marco Antonio Barrera
15 Mike McCallum
14 Felix Trinidad
13 Evander Holyfield
12 Khoasio Galaxy
11 Michael Spinks
10 Azumah Nelson
9 Floyd Mayweather Jr
8 Bernard Hopkins
7 Ricardo Lopez
6 Roy Jones
5 Thomas Hearns
4 Pernell Whitaker
3 Oscar de la Hoya
2 Julio Cesar Chavez
1 Ray Leonard

Good list but you forgot Hagler and Duran.

[mr. magoo]

=redrooster]true but ray leonard's ability to be up on his toes is without question. he never seemed to tire the way you'd expect from someone his age. and the combinations were still lightning fast as they were with norris but terry is always on the move so he doesn't get hit like the others.

I seriously have to question weather or not you actually saw this fight, and even more pertinantely if you've actually viewed real footage of Leonard at his best. Leonard was exhausted by the later rounds of that fight. His reflexes and reaction time was noticeably gone. When I watched that fight on showtime back in 1991, Dr. Ferdie Pacheco even commented that he looked like a shell of his former self, and some of the fans were even chanting " stop the fight ". In your opinion, could this version of Leonard possibly have come back from behind in 1980 to beat Thomas Hearns, especially in the 14th round of a scheduled 15?

hitting terry is harder than hitting a cloud.

Now I find this interesting, because Simon Brown moved up to Jr. Middle, and creamed the livin' crap out of Norris. Brown had decent speed, but by that point in his career was not exactly a lightening bolt when it came time to quickness.

What was your take on this fight ( as you saw it )?

[Drew101]

Originally Posted by Minotauro

Good list but you forgot Hagler and Duran.

They both turned pro before 1976. Otherwise, they'd likely be included.

[TBooze]

.

[redrooster]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

Rooster,

Why are you damn critical of Leonard? I'm not trying to start a heated debate here, but I'm just curious as to why you have such a bone to pick with him. Okay, I suppose we could all make criticisms if we wanted to. I agree that Leonard lost his rematch with Hearns. I also think the Hagler fight was very close, but do you really feel that these are reasons to deny him all time great status? The guy was a gold medalist, he beat a very good fighter in Wilfred Benitez. He was behind on points against another all time great in Thomas Hearns, but came back to beat him by stoppage. He came back from a hard fought loss against Duran to beat him twice after. The Hagler fight could have gone either way in terms of a decision, but Leonard was rerturning from a long layoff. The Don Lalonde win wasn't too bad either.

What seems to be the big problem?

I'm not being critical of Leonard. As Thad Spencer says, leonard was good-damn good. Maybe even an all time great, but not the top fighter of the 80's let alone the last 30 years. So I can't give him credit that doesn't beong to him. It would bother my conscience.

[redrooster]

Originally Posted by Bill Butcher

Just because srl came out on top vs the fab 4 who all could have fought & won in any era he doesnt like it.

Everyone who knows me knows that I am a fan of only the best so if Leonard was the best I would also be a fan of his. but the resume is lacking and too many false retirements. you know what that means.

Originally Posted by bill butcher

He says duran was out of shape for fight 2 & srl shouldnt get credit for the win but, listen to this.....
He says norris beat a very good srl BECAUSE of how srl looked vs duran in fight 3

No that is not what I said. I said that Duran of the second fight melted off 40+ pounds according to Randy Gordon and I have no doubt whatsoever that' he's telling the truth. He said that Leonard rushed him into the rematch knowing that Duran was in need of money. I would have told leonard and his ghetto managers to go fuck themselves, and that he needed me more than I needed him especially since I just beat the pants off of him and that I would take as long as I felt to get the weight off.

Duran for the rubber match had no such problem with a weight drop of 40 pounds.

Originally Posted by bill butcher

talk about making an argument to suit yourself.
anybody could have kept on their toes for 12 vs duran in 1989, that fight didnt mean srl wasnt the fighter he used to be, it just showed how far the great duran had slipped.

what difference does it make who the opponent is if you can you demonstrate that you can do it for 12 rounds without letup. just remember why the audience was booing that night. you can't change the fact that leonard-duran 3 was a blowout, that Ray won all 12 rounds, that he did it in the usual way by boxing and being up on his toes and that in no way did he resemble the Ali of 1976 who took punishment like a punching bag.

Originally Posted by bill butcher

Most people see him as 1 of the atg`s, why cant you ?

He is one of the all time greats. he's just not what Terry Norris was. He's on a throne too, only a little lower.

Originally Posted by bill butcher

You can pick holes in any boxer in history, even srr if you manipulated things enough, get my point rooster.

Please don't compare Leonard with Robinson. that's a joke. Robbie gave rematches and didn't set ridiculous conditions to meet him at these absurd weights. You really don't have enough performances from leonard wheras Robinson performed many times a year.

Originally Posted by bill butcher

1 more thing... leonard vs hagler. fucking beautiful
thats 1 fight I NEVER tire of watching, historic brilliance & it would have been even worse for marvin had they fought in 82, personal opinion of course.

it may have been beautiful performance I won't dissagree but the Norris fight forever tarnished him.

[TBooze]

Originally Posted by Drew101

They both turned pro before 1976. Otherwise, they'd likely be included.

They would of... both top 5.

[TIGEREDGE]

Originally Posted by Bill Butcher

I thought LONG & hard about this 1 & despite his annoying retirements I have to go for ray leonard as the best boxer since 1977/78.

I narrowed it down to 2 men - duran & leonard.
leonard finished 2-1 up but duran was naturally smaller so that evens itself out in my book.

Despite roberto being at his absolute peak between the yrs 77-80, he also had some of his prime yrs from 72-77 with him being the best ever lwt during that time where as srl had ALL of his best yrs from 77-87.

Take out their 3rd meaningless fight, I still thought srl won the 2nd clearer than duran won the 1st & my head tells me that if the leonard of the 2nd fight fought the duran of the 1st fight then sugar ray would have won a close but unanimous decision.

Then you throw in his footwork, handspeed, mindset & ability to finish a man in trouble & you have 1 of the most complete boxers in history.

Then throw in the names of hagler, hearns, benitez & duran himself + the 4/5 world titles.

Not much more to say is there ?

what second fight? it was a farce the no mas fight. duran never turned up. ray is in my top 5 based on his short prime, but great prime. everything about his late 80's comeback was a farce. even though he barely beat hagler in my eyes.

hagler was past it and leonard had so many advantages in his favour like the bigger rings, gloves, 12 round limit and others. don't get me started on the donny lalonde fight. that was a farce.

there's no way that any knowledgable boxing fan could call ray a five weight world champion. he is a 3 weight champion at best. arguably a two weigh as the hagler fight was a bit of a farce

My top 5 for the last 30 years is:

Duran: Still great in 1977 - June 1980. put in a few of his best performances against de jesus, palomino and leonard. also got to be given great credit foir his performance against hagler

Chavez: Long unbeaten streak against high quality opposition and legit 3 weight world champion

Hagler: Long reigning middleweight champion who really made his bones before winning a title

Ray Leonard: Greatest talent of the last 30 years. beat 2 of the best boxers of the last 30 years during his short career in thomas hearns and wilfred benitez

Thomas Hearns: legitimate champion at 5 weights. Could of been higher if he had of got the rematches that he would of got if he had of come along 30 years before

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by TIGEREDGE

what second fight? it was a farce the no mas fight. duran never turned up.

Last time i checked the fight i saw Duran, large as life getting outboxed and outsped. Must have been dreaming.

Or should i say the real SRL didn't turn up for the first one and some imposter hellbent on planting his feet and outfighting Duran as opposed to outboxing him did.

[Arminius]

I do not want to go over this again and again but...

The second Leonard - Duran fight was Duran's 73rd fight. After just 39 fights Leonard was outclassed by Terry Norris and stopped in his 40th. Tigeredge's points are right on the mark.

[TBooze]

Originally Posted by Arminius

I do not want to go over this again and again but...

The second Leonard - Duran fight was Duran's 73rd fight. After just 39 fights Leonard was outclassed by Terry Norris and stopped in his 40th. Tigeredge's points are right on the mark.

And 73 fights in Maxie Rosenbloom's manager suggested he stepped up to 6 rounders, what has that got to do with the price of bread?

[Arminius]

Originally Posted by TBooze

And 73 fights in Maxie Rosenbloom's manager suggested he stepped up to 6 rounders, what has that got to do with the price of bread?

Check the greats's records they almost always decline with the more fights they have.