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Old 12-25-2009, 01:46 AM   #1
KOTF
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Default What is classic's take on this Pacquiao-Mayweather steroid controversy?

Personally I think this controversy will be cleared up in a week and the fight will be announced on new year's day. What say you Classic forum?
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Old 12-25-2009, 01:57 AM   #2
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Default Re: What is classic's take on this Pacquiao-Mayweather steroid controversy?

Is it really that hard to take a blood sample?
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Old 12-25-2009, 02:04 AM   #3
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Default Re: What is classic's take on this Pacquiao-Mayweather steroid controversy?

I think it's just gamesmanship and each side doesn't want to back down. Eventually it should be cleared up and they'll fight.

Let's look at the two scenarios, either Pacquiao is or isn't on something. If he is, Team Pacquiao obviously doesn't want these random blood tests as he might be on something more detectable by blood tests. If he's clean, then it's insulting to be accused by them of being on something, and Pacquiao doesn't want to back down. It's like, who is Mayweather to make me do all this extra stuff and bully me in negotiations?

But ultimately, Pacquiao is not going to give up a payday of 40 or so million because he doesn't want a tablespoon of blood taken (unless he really is dirty). Plus, it just looks shady. While some will defend him, many fans will just see it as him having something to hide.

Random testing would be better for all fights in order to catch more PED users. I would prefer it. It's not as if the current system is especially reliable, hell, even members of the NSAC have publicly talked about the ways to get around it. Flip Homansky said the only fighters who get caught are the ones who make mistakes. But do we REALLY want to know how many guys out there use? The number might be high and bother fans. Personally I think that any fan who is really surprised when an athlete gets caught using PEDs is just naive.

What I don't really understand is why they would want to do a blood test so close to the fight anyway. Why would they want to do it a day or two before the fight? They'd want to do it during camp and when training camp ends.
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Old 12-25-2009, 02:20 AM   #4
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Default Re: What is classic's take on this Pacquiao-Mayweather steroid controversy?

As much as I'm rooting for Pac in this match, I'd say it is extremely likely Pac uses banned substances while training. The excuses offered by Roach and Arum are feeble and transparant to such a degree that I've all but sentenced him.

Then again, I believe eighty percent of fights someone is on on dope. How could they not be? Doping is widespread in any sport in which a lot of money is involved, and boxing is run by promoters, for cryin' out loud. They've bribed refs and judges, it's not like the doping commission is untouchable.

What I find most interesting is that Mayweather makes it an issue, which he probably wouldn't if he was using himself. It would be a testament to skill involved in the sport of boxing if the very best was one of the few that did not use them.
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Old 12-25-2009, 03:04 AM   #5
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Default Re: What is classic's take on this Pacquiao-Mayweather steroid controversy?

I think that there is some high stakes gamesmanship going on, neither side wanting to back down,but recently"good guy" athletes & stars in every sport have proven to be cheating bastards....

Thomas Hearns Roberto Duran Ray Leonard Camocho Arguello all these guys lost KO power as they moved up .None of them gained KO power.

Maybe it`s Roach & new improved Manny ,training etc.

For the good of the sport ,to remove any doubt, allow responsible, reasonable, Random,blood, urine,hair samples,tests by olympic quality labs.
In other sports records may be jeopordised by blood doping steroids hgh
etc, in boxing cheating could be fatal
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Old 12-25-2009, 04:07 AM   #6
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Default Re: What is classic's take on this Pacquiao-Mayweather steroid controversy?

In a cracking old Curmudgeonly voice....

"back in my day..the only way you could get extra testorine was to inject bull seamen into your body....with a needle i mean..not a turkey baster...."

in truth though, back in the day they did get testorine out of bull seamen and take out the testorine...hitlers doctor gave him massive doeses of that...they say it might have made him a even more angry then he normally was.
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Old 12-25-2009, 04:47 AM   #7
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Default Re: What is classic's take on this Pacquiao-Mayweather steroid controversy?

Here's an article from ESPN a couple years back about PED use in boxing.

Funny how some people here insist that the commission's testing is good enough but high profile people in the commissions will even admit that it's not especially hard to get around the tests.


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Boxing does not escape the specter of steroids

Tuesday afternoon's raid on a Florida pharmacy in connection with the distribution of performance-enhancing drugs has once again shone the spotlight on the issue of steroids and sports. News outlets reported a number of professional athletes as being among the customers of the pharmacy and of an Alabama company that, in a related move, was indicted by a grand jury the same day on suspicion of selling illegal drugs over the Internet. An attorney for Applied Pharmacy Services told Mobile's WALA-TV that federal authorities raided the company last August.

Among those mentioned in connection with the Alabama facility was former heavyweight champion Evander Holyfield. However, Holyfield told ESPN.com on Wednesday that the only drugs he had ever bought from Alabama were heart medications for his recently deceased father. As for steroids, Holyfield asked rhetorically, "What is it gonna do for me to get on steroids? Enhance me to do what?"

It's rare that boxing is at the center of discussions of sports and steroids, but these developments come at a time when there is growing evidence that the reach of performance-enhancing substances extends between the ropes, and perhaps increasingly so.

Last week, a second sample confirmed that Mariano Carrera tested positive for the anabolic steroid clenbuterol following his World Boxing Association (WBA) junior middleweight title victory over Javier Castillejo in Berlin on Dec. 2. Just three days after that bout, the Nevada State Athletic Commission suspended Orlando Salido, who had outpointed Robert Guerrero to win the International Boxing Federation (IBF) featherweight belt in Las Vegas on Nov. 4, when his postfight urinalysis revealed the presence of another steroid, nandrolone. (Both Carrera and Salido were stripped of their titles following the tests.)

Nor are Carrera and Salido the first:

• Frans Botha of South Africa was stripped of the IBF heavyweight title belt he won against Axel Schulz in 1995 after testing positive for steroids, which he and his camp claimed had been prescribed for treatment of an arm injury.

• Roy Jones Jr. and Richard Hall both tested positive for the testosterone precursor androstenedione after Jones defeated Hall to retain his undisputed world light heavyweight championship in Indianapolis in 2000. Jones insisted his test was the result of ingesting the supplement Ripped Fuel.

• Fernando Vargas was suspended for nine months and fined $100,000 for testing positive for the steroid stanozolol following his defeat by Oscar De La Hoya in September 2002. Vargas claimed the steroids were given to him without his knowledge, but he accepted full responsibility.

• James Toney's 2005 victory over WBA heavyweight titlist John Ruiz was changed to a no-contest after Toney tested positive for nandrolone. Toney claimed that the steroids were given to him by a doctor to treat an injured arm suffered during his previous bout, against Rydell Booker.

So is steroid use more widespread in boxing than has previously been acknowledged?

"I tend to think that it's a much bigger problem than we recognize. I think boxing for the most part has ignored it," said Dr. Margaret Goodman, chair of the Medical Advisory Board of the Nevada Athletic Commission. "And I don't think it's related to the positive drug tests that have been turning up lately. I think the problem with boxing is that because there is no federal oversight, commissions don't have to test, and they don't all have to test for the same things when they do test, so there's no standardization. And so more often than not, fighters aren't tested, and don't think they don't know it. And I think if you talk to boxers, I think steroids are readily available in many gyms all over the world."

The scandal that erupted around the Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative (BALCO) suggested a world where big-name athletes spent tens of thousands of dollars on finely tuned drug regimes beyond the reach of mere mortals. However, said Richard Pound, chairman of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), that's only part of the story.

"I think the problem with boxing is that because there is no federal oversight, commissions don't have to test, and they don't all have to test for the same things when they do test, so there's no standardization. And so more often than not, fighters aren't tested, and don't think they don't know it."

Dr. Margaret Goodman, chair of the Medical Advisory Board of the Nevada Athletic Commission

"The BALCO stuff, you could see the treatments there were $35,000 a year, which clearly favored those who could afford to do it. But there's so much of this stuff available, in gymnasiums and on street corners, that might not be as scientifically administered but is certainly available and consumed," he said.

Certainly, Pound continued, the notion that steroids cause their users only to bulk up -- and thus would be of minimal interest to boxers, who rely on speed, endurance and lean muscle -- is erroneous.

"Anything that increases muscle mass and strength would be of assistance in boxing," he observed. "And also just the recovery from training."

"The reason most fighters use anabolic steroids is not for the bulk," Goodman added. "It's not the big heavyweights that are testing positive, it's the smaller weights. And there's always been this misperception that they're used to put on bulk, whereas in reality they're used by athletes so they can train more. They reduce the time they have to take off if they have a small injury. The problem is that it's a double-edged sword, because steroid use chronically will lead to tendon injuries as well as a breakdown of the bones, making them more brittle."

"Anything that increases muscle mass and strength would be of assistance in boxing. And also just the recovery from training."

Richard Pound, chairman of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA)
Throughout the world of sports, said Pound, those who are attempting to catch users of steroid-enhancing drugs are almost inevitably constantly a half-step behind the users and distributors.

"I think you have to expect that there will always be some who don't care what the rules are, and are prepared to take these short cuts, and in a sense they'll always be ahead, in that they're the ones who decide when they're going to do it and what they're going to use," he noted.

Added Mark Fainaru-Wada of the San Francisco Chronicle, co-author of the book "Game of Shadows," which exposed the inner workings of the BALCO case: "I always think the cheaters are going to be ahead of the testers, primarily because there's more money. The testers are always looking for money. So that's a huge issue. I think the cheaters will always be ahead.

"If we learned anything from BALCO, it's that these guys were very smart about testing and they knew how to beat it. There were masking agents, designer steroids, taking things that couldn't be tested for, like human growth hormone. There's just a wide range of ways to get around the process."

That's the case, said Fainaru-Wada, even in those sports that subject their participants to random, unannounced testing, which is demonstrably not the case in boxing. Not all commissions test for drugs, and the few that do focus almost exclusively on championship bouts; none tests boxers except on fight night.

"You don't take anabolic steroids or human growth hormone all the time. You take them in a certain cycle in which you build muscle, build strength, build reflexes, and then you stop the cycle. So, with correct knowledge, someone shouldn't get caught."

As a result, asserted Flip Homansky, former ringside physician and Nevada state athletic commissioner, only the fighters who "make mistakes" are caught.

"You don't take anabolic steroids or human growth hormone all the time," he pointed out. "You take them in a certain cycle in which you build muscle, build strength, build reflexes, and then you stop the cycle. So, with correct knowledge, someone shouldn't get caught."

Said Fainaru-Wada: "Knowledge is half the deal. If you know when you're going to be tested, that kind of defeats the purpose.

He added, "It does nothing to dissuade the notion of using. That was the joke about baseball for so long. Even when they announced, 'OK, we're going to start testing at spring training,' well, OK, everyone knew when they were going to be tested, so you just took until you knew it was going to be clear of your system, then you stopped, and then you started again. So the notion that it just has to be championship events and that that will somehow eliminate the use of these drugs, is naive. Even the kid who gets a handful of steroids under the table in Mexico should be fine, unless he's an idiot."

"Knowledge is half the deal. If you know when you're going to be tested, that kind of defeats the purpose."

"The only way to catch people is not just to test them during competition, but to test them between competitions," said Homansky. "And if boxing wants to get serious, then when people apply for a license in a state, or when people sign for a fight -- let's say Oscar [De La Hoya] and Floyd [Mayweather Jr.]; they signed in December for a fight the next May -- the state where the fight is going to be could insist on part of the language in the contract stating that they can be tested at any time."
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Old 12-25-2009, 04:48 AM   #8
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Default Re: What is classic's take on this Pacquiao-Mayweather steroid controversy?

Quote:
The experience of other sports suggests that even that kind of random, universal testing would not necessarily be enough to catch every user or stamp out steroid use.

"Look at the Olympic testing situation," said Fainaru-Wada. "They have year-round testing, unannounced, they have banned for life on your second positive, two-year ban on your first in track and field. That's a pretty substantial set of penalties." And yet, as repeated examples have shown, track athletes continue to test positive -- suggesting strongly that there are many more who are using performance-enhancing drugs who are still able to evade detection. During questioning by the United States Anti-Doping Agency in the wake of BALCO, said Fainaru-Wada, one track athlete told investigators that a field of eight elite female sprinters would include six who were juiced. A second sprinter disagreed. She said all eight would be users.

"You need to have the random testing as part of your arsenal," Pound said.

"But the real future in the fight against drugs in sport is going to arise now that governments have adopted an international convention under UNESCO. And they're going to be able to use their investigative powers to go at the upstream side of things, the suppliers, and traffickers."

Nonetheless, before boxing can even begin to approach that stage, argue some, it at least needs to catch up to other sports in terms of testing.
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Old 12-25-2009, 05:15 AM   #9
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Default Re: What is classic's take on this Pacquiao-Mayweather steroid controversy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by haglerforever View Post
I think that there is some high stakes gamesmanship going on, neither side wanting to back down,but recently"good guy" athletes & stars in every sport have proven to be cheating bastards....

Thomas Hearns Roberto Duran Ray Leonard Camocho Arguello all these guys lost KO power as they moved up .None of them gained KO power.

Maybe it`s Roach & new improved Manny ,training etc.

For the good of the sport ,to remove any doubt, allow responsible, reasonable, Random,blood, urine,hair samples,tests by olympic quality labs.
In other sports records may be jeopordised by blood doping steroids hgh
etc, in boxing cheating could be fatal
Hearns arguably gained power when he went to 154.

Pacquiao might not have gained that much power as he's moved up. He could have been at his max at 135, which isn't that big a leap from his original weight iff you discount the "18-year-old-skinny-kid" weights.
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Old 12-25-2009, 05:41 AM   #10
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Default Re: What is classic's take on this Pacquiao-Mayweather steroid controversy?

Schoolgirl bullshit, petty, childish, selfish & disrespectful to the fans & indeed the world that want to see this fight bad.... they wouldnt be millionaires if it wasnt for us paying to see them fight.

Im done with both of them if this fight doesnt get made... I will regard both men as non-existant in future discussions, ATG lists etc.

The way farmboxer constantly refers to Floyd as `void` without fail on every post, I will refer to both Pac & FMJ as `shit` til the end of time.

It wont affect them either way but my respect for both will be -0 so neither will recieve an ounce of my time.

THATS my view on this utter piss.
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Old 12-25-2009, 05:47 AM   #11
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Default Re: What is classic's take on this Pacquiao-Mayweather steroid controversy?

urine test really arent conclusive enough for any fight..they should do olympic style testing for every fight..though for local small time fights it might be too expensive..but at least for these kinds of major fights...definitly.
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Old 12-25-2009, 05:58 AM   #12
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Default Re: What is classic's take on this Pacquiao-Mayweather steroid controversy?

Has Pac expressed any fear/phobia of needless before, or is it a new thing?

For one who really has such fear/phobia, I can see how regular blood tests would be a large burden.
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Old 12-25-2009, 06:24 AM   #13
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Default Re: What is classic's take on this Pacquiao-Mayweather steroid controversy?

I don't think it's a big deal, although i haven't quite made my mind up yet.

On one hand, just because he doesn't want to be tested doesn't make him guilty. I really don't want a police officer to search my car or house, but that doesn't mean i'm hiding a corpse in my trunk. On the other hand, there is much more relevance in testing Pac because he could be at an unfair advantage.
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Old 12-25-2009, 06:55 AM   #14
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Default Re: What is classic's take on this Pacquiao-Mayweather steroid controversy?

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Originally Posted by Thread Stealer View Post
I think it's just gamesmanship and each side doesn't want to back down. Eventually it should be cleared up and they'll fight.

Let's look at the two scenarios, either Pacquiao is or isn't on something. If he is, Team Pacquiao obviously doesn't want these random blood tests as he might be on something more detectable by blood tests. If he's clean, then it's insulting to be accused by them of being on something, and Pacquiao doesn't want to back down. It's like, who is Mayweather to make me do all this extra stuff and bully me in negotiations?

But ultimately, Pacquiao is not going to give up a payday of 40 or so million because he doesn't want a tablespoon of blood taken (unless he really is dirty). Plus, it just looks shady. While some will defend him, many fans will just see it as him having something to hide.

Random testing would be better for all fights in order to catch more PED users. I would prefer it. It's not as if the current system is especially reliable, hell, even members of the NSAC have publicly talked about the ways to get around it. Flip Homansky said the only fighters who get caught are the ones who make mistakes. But do we REALLY want to know how many guys out there use? The number might be high and bother fans. Personally I think that any fan who is really surprised when an athlete gets caught using PEDs is just naive.

What I don't really understand is why they would want to do a blood test so close to the fight anyway. Why would they want to do it a day or two before the fight? They'd want to do it during camp and when training camp ends.
I won't comment on the Pac-PBF issue because I doubt we know even half of the facts and a discussion will end like the discussion of Lewis-Vitali.

But I want a clean sport, so yeah, I would want to know he cheats and I want them to be punished. Hard.

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Originally Posted by haglerforever View Post
For the good of the sport ,to remove any doubt, allow responsible, reasonable, Random,blood, urine,hair samples,tests by olympic quality labs.
That's it
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Old 12-25-2009, 07:19 AM   #15
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Default Re: What is classic's take on this Pacquiao-Mayweather steroid controversy?

In any case; I think boxing should adopt the same routines for testing as Olympic sports. It's really a joke that no unannounced tests are made.
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