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Old 01-14-2010, 02:02 PM   #46
TheGreatA
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Default Re: Top 5 most overrated boxers of All Time

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No i have seen most fighters that there are footage on believe this im not a newbie to boxing and I am very well aware of how many greats there have been throughout the years. I dont believe that Jones is top 10 all time maybe Hth at Sm and M but he is probably between 15-20 on my All time list. I think Hopkins is a top 5 Mw and you can even make an argument for top 3 mw. I have a lot of respect for the old timers have seen footage or full fights on most of them and They built great resumes. However as ive stated many times on here many on this forum tend to underrate the Modern day fighters. Dont get me wrong im not overrating modern day fighters like the Posters on the General forum do but im not underrating them either like many on the classic do.
I do think you may be a bit more familiar with the fighters of your own time which is why you rate them higher. It's only natural but surely if you had followed the careers of Barney Ross, Jimmy McLarnin, Tony Canzoneri, etc. and only read and watched a couple of films of modern fighters you'd probably have them above Chavez, Lopez, Jones, Hopkins in the all-time lists.

Basically what I'm saying is that if one is truly neutral about all the boxers in history and rates them on even terms then there's no way they'd ever say that it's an "insult" not to rate a fighter, even a great fighter like Chavez, among the top 20 best of all time. It's a huge compliment to be rated inside the top 20-30 or even top 50-100, that's how many great fighters there have been.
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Old 01-14-2010, 02:06 PM   #47
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Roy Jones Jr

Was his reign at 175lbs anything but average? The majority of his challengers were B levels who would go on achieve absolutely nothing outside of getting in the ring with Jones. Even worse is that this supernatural, superman couldn't even get a lot of them out of there because he was to busy making fighters who had no business sharing the ring with him look bad. His Heavyweight triumph is outdone by a better Light Heavyweight in Michael Spinks, who should be remembered as the greater fighter, in my estimation. Hopkins was a far cry from the fighter he'd develop into, whereas Jones was a world class fighter fresh out of the Olympics.

Ricardo Lopez.

This ain't a dig at you Anarci, but there's quite a few posters who have him higher than Barrera and Morales whilst keeping a straight face. Barrera was decimating, destroying similar level opposition to Lopez's competition as he was dominating at 122lbs, where he made 8 defenses in the space of just over a year. Lopez had ample time to move up a division and test himself against great opposition but he made the conscious decision not too. For that he is remembered as a great talent, the greatest Minimumweight of all time, but not a top 90/100 fighter.

Juan Manuel Marquez

Again, I love Marquez. I think he was every bit as talented as a lot of people allude too, but he is an underachiever. You look at his record and his 3 divisional champion. But then you look at who he's beaten, and fighting top opposition was well overdue from his point of view. He didn't fight a world class fighter till 2003, and he still hasn't gotten that all elusive career defining victory, despite the Pacquiao controversy. I had faith he'll get another big triumph before he retires, but he lacks in resume, which is an area his Mexican peers shine.

Carlos Zarate

Another fighter I respect a lot, and I love to watch him fight. Carlos dominated a good, but not great, Bantamweight division. He had skills, a lot of power, but his resume, longevity, and ability to bounce back does not stack up to certain fighters who a lot of people, a lot of respected posters, list higher than him on a top 100.
Well you know my stand on Lopez so we wont open that can of worms again You stated that he never fought a world class fighter until 2003 Thats were you are wrong he fough a good champ in Freddie Norwood back in the late 90s and that fight could have gone either way.Other former world champs he beat before that time Daniel Jiminez,Julio Gervacio,Agapito Sanchez,Julio Gamboa and Robbie Peden was a legit contender when Marquez beat him. Hes had many good wins after 2003 also,and regardless of what the judges tell you has proved to be at least Pacs equal when they fought eachother. Hardly overrated in my opinion.
Zarates competition was also better than you mentioned i thought the division was pretty strong when he fought there,although im one who agrees with you that he is not top 4 or 5 all time mexicans fighters like many list him at. I do have him at #4 all time bantam though.
I dont rate Jones as high as many others but i do think that jumping from Middle to heavy and winning titles is a great accomplishment and overlooked by some. I probably have him between 15-20 on my all time list.
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Old 01-14-2010, 02:11 PM   #48
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You stated that he never fought a world class fighter until 2003 Thats were you are wrong he fough a good champ in Freddie Norwood back in the late 90s and that fight could have gone either way.Other former world champs he beat before that time Daniel Jiminez,Julio Gervacio,Agapito Sanchez,Julio Gamboa and Robbie Peden was a legit contender when Marquez beat him.
My exact quote, Anarci, was that Marquez didn't fight a 'world class fighter" till 2003. Freddie Norwood wasn't world class, and neither was any of the other guys you mentioned. Barrera had already done a paint job on Jiminez, and trust me, he did not look like a world beater in there with Marco. He was a paper champion. Peden is B level, not a world class fighter and never was. I wasn't wrong, he fought decnent fighters prior to fighting Manny, but no world class fighters. Barrera and Morales started fighting at elite level, way before.


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I dont rate Jones as high as many others but i do think that jumping from Middle to heavy and winning titles is a great accomplishment and overlooked by some. I probably have him between 15-20 on my all time list.
Well then you're guilty of overrating the man, aren't you?
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Old 01-14-2010, 02:19 PM   #49
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Default Re: Top 5 most overrated boxers of All Time

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I do think you may be a bit more familiar with the fighters of your own time which is why you rate them higher. It's only natural but surely if you had followed the careers of Barney Ross, Jimmy McLarnin, Tony Canzoneri, etc. and only read and watched a couple of films of modern fighters you'd probably have them above Chavez, Lopez, Jones, Hopkins in the all-time lists.

Basically what I'm saying is that if one is truly neutral about all the boxers in history and rates them on even terms then there's no way they'd ever say that it's an "insult" not to rate a fighter, even a great fighter like Chavez, among the top 20 best of all time. It's a huge compliment to be rated inside the top 20-30 or even top 50-100, that's how many great fighters there have been.
Well what makes you think i dont rank those guys high All of those old timers are no lower than 35 and id put Ross in around the lower teens. Check this out Great A , i havent just been watching boxing for over 30 years ive read up on it a whoooooooole lot too. Im familiar with all those old timers.
In fact believe it or not I had the honor of meeting Jimmy Mclarnin many times as he was on the board of directors for the WBHOF, a banquet i use to go to every year and also going to the VIP parties in the suites after the banquets, i know a few people in the buisness and board of directors that use to hook me up, in fact last time i attended Mando Muniz gave me a couple VIP tickets for me and my pops.
Jimmy Mcclarnin looked great well into his 90s and still socialized well into the night with everyone there When i first met him i couldnt believe that he was still alive, especially he looked at least 15 years younger than his true age. He since has passed on, I will definitly be at WBHOF banquet this year. One of my favorites old timers who is a regular at those banquets and parties is Carmen Basillio a real charachter
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Old 01-14-2010, 02:32 PM   #50
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Default Re: Top 5 most overrated boxers of All Time

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My exact quote, Anarci, was that Marquez didn't fight a 'world class fighter" till 2003. Freddie Norwood wasn't world class, and neither was any of the other guys you mentioned. Barrera had already done a paint job on Jiminez, and trust me, he did not look like a world beater in there with Marco. He was a paper champion. Peden is B level, not a world class fighter and never was. I wasn't wrong, he fought decnent fighters prior to fighting Manny, but no world class fighters. Barrera and Morales started fighting at elite level, way before.




Well then you're guilty of overrating the man, aren't you?
im not sure if im overrating him just placing him about right there are some who have him higher than me.

As for being world class I think your opinion on who is and isnt world class is kind of off a little bit. How can Freddie Norwood not be world class? When Marquez fought Norwood he was thought of as one of the 2or 3 best feathers in the world, at a time when that was a tough division. In fact at the time I gave Lil Hagler more than a decent shot at taking Naz. A world class fighter is anyone who can be competetive with the best the division has to offer. I definitly though Agapito Sanchez was world class too he was giving Pac fits and had some good wins thought he had some good skills. Julio Gervacio was a very good fighter at one time, you just werent a fan at the time to remember when he whipped another very good fighter like Louie Espinoza and a couple other guys.

Also forgot to mention Manuel Medina and Victor Polo guys who were both pretty damn good fighters and Marquez dominated them.
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Old 01-14-2010, 02:34 PM   #51
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Default Re: Top 5 most overrated boxers of All Time

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Most overated? Terry [Dresden] Norris
Norris kicks ass and we have the film to prove it. In fact, he kicked your boy's ass pretty convincingly.
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Old 01-14-2010, 02:38 PM   #52
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Roy Jones is definitely top ten material. Even Powerpuncher would attest to this and to not admit it is to bring shame upon yourself

You must be blind not to see it
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Old 01-14-2010, 02:46 PM   #53
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Default Re: Top 5 most overrated boxers of All Time

  • Ricardo Lopez - Very, very good fighter from a technical and offensive stand-point, and he had the tools to give many trouble. But didn't have the resumé to earn a top 40/50 place, and I think some people over-rate him further when they say he could of easily cleared up one or two divisions north of minimum weight.
  • Julio Cesar Chavez - Tough, tough fighter for anybody H2H at 130 & 135. I little more beatable at 140, and I think he loses to probably all the elite at 147. His resumé is stretched but lacking in real depth and in real quality wins for him to warrant a top 20 place, which is where I've often seen him ranked.
I'll add 3 more when I can think of them. Dempsey, Johnson etc are too obvious choices to include, and they've been mentioned so much that they perhaps aren't over-rated anymore.
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Old 01-14-2010, 02:47 PM   #54
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Default Re: Top 5 most overrated boxers of All Time

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Roy Jones is definitely top ten material. Even Powerpuncher would attest to this and to not admit it is to bring shame upon yourself

You must be blind not to see it
You have no credibility. Go away.
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Old 01-14-2010, 02:55 PM   #55
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Default Re: Top 5 most overrated boxers of All Time

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Well what makes you think i dont rank those guys high All of those old timers are no lower than 35 and id put Ross in around the lower teens. Check this out Great A , i havent just been watching boxing for over 30 years ive read up on it a whoooooooole lot too. Im familiar with all those old timers.
In fact believe it or not I had the honor of meeting Jimmy Mclarnin many times as he was on the board of directors for the WBHOF, a banquet i use to go to every year and also going to the VIP parties in the suites after the banquets, i know a few people in the buisness and board of directors that use to hook me up, in fact last time i attended Mando Muniz gave me a couple VIP tickets for me and my pops.
Jimmy Mcclarnin looked great well into his 90s and still socialized well into the night with everyone there When i first met him i couldnt believe that he was still alive, especially he looked at least 15 years younger than his true age. He since has passed on, I will definitly be at WBHOF banquet this year. One of my favorites old timers who is a regular at those banquets and parties is Carmen Basillio a real charachter
I don't doubt anyone's boxing knowledge here, you obviously possess a lot of knowledge, the point I'm trying to make is that there's no way not being rated in the top 20 by everyone can be regarded as an insult. Chavez, as great as he was, had fighters about as great as him competing in his own time. And boxing has been around for centuries. As I've said, there are surely 20 fighters that can reasonably, not insultingly or controversially, be rated above JC Chavez.

Great stuff about the IBHOF by the way. Unfortunately I live in Finland and can't really meet all these great fighters myself without making a trip to the United States.

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Roy Jones is definitely top ten material. Even Powerpuncher would attest to this and to not admit it is to bring shame upon yourself

You must be blind not to see it
Even PowerPuncher? He is knowledgeable but I didn't know he has become some kind of an authority here. Again, this is exactly what I'm talking about. No one is "blind" or "insulting" if they don't agree with your view, they just don't agree with you, simple as that.
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Old 01-14-2010, 02:59 PM   #56
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You have no credibility. Go away.
you go away. all your posts suck!
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Old 01-14-2010, 03:15 PM   #57
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you go away. all your posts suck!
As opposed to dedicating my life to talking about Ray Leonard? Your a sad, sad old man who probably lives in the basement of his mum's house with posters of Leonard all over your wall, with dart holes plastered over them.

Jones a top 10 fighter? ...Justify it, please.
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Old 01-14-2010, 03:24 PM   #58
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Default Re: Top 5 most overrated boxers of All Time

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I don't doubt anyone's boxing knowledge here, you obviously possess a lot of knowledge, the point I'm trying to make is that there's no way not being rated in the top 20 by everyone can be regarded as an insult. Chavez, as great as he was, had fighters about as great as him competing in his own time. And boxing has been around for centuries. As I've said, there are surely 20 fighters that can reasonably, not insultingly or controversially, be rated above JC Chavez.

Great stuff about the IBHOF by the way. Unfortunately I live in Finland and can't really meet all these great fighters myself without making a trip to the United States.
.
Fair enough i just guess we have a difference of opinions there. However although i know boxing has been around for ages i dont include Fighters prior to the Quennsberry so in all reality were only going back around 115 to 120 years. Seems like most fans dont post guys going back further. Divide that by 20 and you have like can break it down to the best fighter every 6 years makes that list. I know thats not the best way of doing that since diffrent eras have been tougher but i think you get my drift in my opinion Chavez definitly meets that criteria.
As for The IBHOF ive never been to that one as that ones on the other side of the Country in Canstoa,Ny which is about 3,000 miles from me,althought id like to go to that one since they have an actual musuem and headquarters
The one i go to is the WBHOF which is on the West Coast , every year the Banquets are in various locations around Los Angeles, unfortunatly the dont have an actual headquarter or Musuem. The Banquets are always Top notch Black Tie events with a whos who of Old time greats and Current top fighters. Havent been in a few years but will make it this year for sure. There is usually at least 1,000 to 1500 in attentance and it lasts about 4 hours if I remember correctly,although if you know people they have a Vip party that last well into the morning up in the luxury suites where its easier to rub shoulders with all the legends and current fighters. Lots of Women and booze too I cant tell you how many fighters and boxing personalities ive met throughout the years of attending those events, and all the fighters are more than happy to take pictures or sign autographs and memorabillia. Ive got a couple sets of gloves signed by more than 40 HOF legends.
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Old 01-14-2010, 03:24 PM   #59
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I tend to agree with Dempsey, but Ezzard Charles, Sam Langford and Barney Ross? And you say there's not enough film of Charles and Ross? There's plenty of both.

Not impressive?

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That is some great footage thanks for sharing, I am always so impressed with Ezzard Charles when I see him on film, the guy has such great poise and skill. As for Sam Langford, I dont think you can overrate a guy who had wins over both Joe Gans and Harry Wills. Although people do seem to forget that he lost about ten fights to Wills as well.

I never see Wills getting rated on all time heavyweight lists despite his extremely impressive record and longevity.
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Old 01-14-2010, 03:36 PM   #60
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Fair enough i just guess we have a difference of opinions there. However although i know boxing has been around for ages i dont include Fighters prior to the Quennsberry so in all reality were only going back around 115 to 120 years. Seems like most fans dont post guys going back further. Divide that by 20 and you have like can break it down to the best fighter every 6 years makes that list. I know thats not the best way of doing that since diffrent eras have been tougher but i think you get my drift in my opinion Chavez definitly meets that criteria.
As for The IBHOF ive never been to that one as that ones on the other side of the Country in Canstoa,Ny which is about 3,000 miles from me,althought id like to go to that one since they have an actual musuem and headquarters
The one i go to is the WBHOF which is on the West Coast , every year the Banquets are in various locations around Los Angeles, unfortunatly the dont have an actual headquarter or Musuem. The Banquets are always Top notch Black Tie events with a whos who of Old time greats and Current top fighters. Havent been in a few years but will make it this year for sure. There is usually at least 1,000 to 1500 in attentance and it lasts about 4 hours if I remember correctly,although if you know people they have a Vip party that last well into the morning up in the luxury suites where its easier to rub shoulders with all the legends and current fighters. Lots of Women and booze too I cant tell you how many fighters and boxing personalities ive met throughout the years of attending those events, and all the fighters are more than happy to take pictures or sign autographs and memorabillia. Ive got a couple sets of gloves signed by more than 40 HOF legends.
I agree most people do and probably should only rate fighters of the past 120 or so years because there are very little accounts of the pre-Queensbury era fighters but it's still a very long time when you think about it. Chavez has the likes of Pernell Whitaker, Roy Jones, Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran, Marvin Hagler to compete with not to mention all the fighters before them.

I meant to write WBHOF, my mistake. Sounds like a great event to visit.

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That is some great footage thanks for sharing, I am always so impressed with Ezzard Charles when I see him on film, the guy has such great poise and skill. As for Sam Langford, I dont think you can overrate a guy who had wins over both Joe Gans and Harry Wills. Although people do seem to forget that he lost about ten fights to Wills as well.

I never see Wills getting rated on all time heavyweight lists despite his extremely impressive record and longevity.
Wills is definitely underrated and we can thank the circumstances of his time for that. He never got a title shot despite being the outstanding contender for about a decade. I view it as a great achievement that a much smaller man such as Sam Langford could ever beat him.
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