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Old 01-16-2010, 06:20 PM   #1
MRBILL
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Default Who thinks Frazier was a slob at 224 pounds for Foreman in '76?

I am kickin' back tonight sippin' booze and toking on a cigar reviewing fights at the moment..... I have "Foreman-Frazier 2" from New York rolling right now...... Despite Frazier getting his ass TKO'd by Foreman in round 5, I still enjoyed this fight a whole lot.......

NOW! The "Weight" issue..... Joe Frazier and George Foreman BOTH weighed 224 1/2 pounds for this fight in 1976....... George Foreman looked solid and well in tune with his training at the time.... HOWEVER! Joe Frazier was five years older at age 32 by the time this rematch occurred and was nearing the end of his career....... STILL! Upon further review, I honestly do NOT feel Frazier appeared to be a gross looking slob at 224 1/2 pounds.... Yes, it was his heaviest fighting weight ever up to that point... But he didn't look grossly outta shape...... I feel a 32 year old Frazier at 224 pounds could've whipped several key heavies at that time; just not Foreman, Ali or Norton in '76.......

Any takers care to comment?

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Old 01-16-2010, 06:24 PM   #2
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Default Re: Who thinks Frazier was a slob at 224 pounds for Foreman in '76?

Note:

Joe Frazier was 229 pounds for Jumbo Cummings in 1981 when Frazier was age 37...... 'Tis his heaviest weight ever for a fight.........

George Foreman was 267 pounds for Steven Zouski in 1987 for his first comeback fight at age 38...... It is still Foreman's heaviest fighting weight ever....... WOW!!

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Old 01-16-2010, 06:25 PM   #3
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Default Re: Who thinks Frazier was a slob at 224 pounds for Foreman in '76?

Hard to judge based on that losing effort, which I havent seen in a while. Reckon he would have taken Norton, Shavers, Lyle if he was in his Manilla form but not Holmes
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Old 01-16-2010, 06:37 PM   #4
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Default Re: Who thinks Frazier was a slob at 224 pounds for Foreman in '76?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MRBILL View Post
STILL! Upon further review, I honestly do NOT feel Frazier appeared to be a gross looking slob at 224 1/2 pounds.... Yes, it was his heaviest fighting weight ever up to that point... But he didn't look grossly outta shape......
This is what people said about Jawn L Sullivan when he was sliping.

Quote:
I feel a 32 year old Frazier at 224 pounds could've whipped several key heavies at that time; just not Foreman, Ali or Norton in '76.......
Not likley, would be my first impression.
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Old 01-16-2010, 06:50 PM   #5
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Default Re: Who thinks Frazier was a slob at 224 pounds for Foreman in '76?

It was the cataracts, diabetes, and just his body breaking down. He didn't have it post Manilla. That should have been his farewell.
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Old 01-16-2010, 06:51 PM   #6
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Default Re: Who thinks Frazier was a slob at 224 pounds for Foreman in '76?

[quote=janitor;5919060]
Quote:

This is what people said about Jawn L Sullivan when he was sliping.



Not likley, would be my first impression.
I have read about "Sully vs. Corb" from 1892 down in New Orleans... I wish I had some still photos' of the fight, but I haven't..... If memory serves me right, Sully was reported to be bloated at age 34 when he tipped in at 212 + or - pounds, compared to Corb's lean 185 + or - pounds and was aged 26 yrs---give or take........

I'm sure Sully still could've beaten a brawler who was flat-footed in 1892; just not a young, spry man who had fleet feet / legs...........

Styles make fights..........

As for the '42 film with Errol Flynn (Corbett) and Ward Bond (Sullivan), well, it depicted a skilled boxer being too spry for and aging man who had slowed down in years.........

I think Joe Frazier could've handled "Scott LeDoux, Dino Dennis & Duane Bobick" in 1976 had they fought......... I'm not certain about Frazier beating "Norton or Lyle" in '76..........

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Old 01-17-2010, 05:00 AM   #7
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Default Re: Who thinks Frazier was a slob at 224 pounds for Foreman in '76?

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Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
It was the cataracts, diabetes, and just his body breaking down. He didn't have it post Manilla. That should have been his farewell.
agreed.he could have come in at 205 and he would have still fared badly.the frazier of the 1st ali fight though ,was awesome.
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Old 01-17-2010, 05:17 AM   #8
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Default Re: Who thinks Frazier was a slob at 224 pounds for Foreman in '76?

He wasn't Tony Tubbs fat but he wasn't in any way approaching peak fighting fettle either.

And fair enough too.

Joe had tortured his body for years to get down to 205 pounds of relentless fighting machine,and he'd copped a sickening amount of punishment for all his efforts.He simply couldn't do that to himself anymore post-Manilla,hence his extra poundage.

Yeah Joe could've still beaten some handy pugs at this point but the Ali's,Foreman's,Nortons,Lyles and Holmes's would've all been beyond him at this point imo,so it was pointless him carrying on (leaving aside the Cummings bout) after it.
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Old 01-17-2010, 06:52 AM   #9
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Default Re: Who thinks Frazier was a slob at 224 pounds for Foreman in '76?

Genetically speaking, I think Frazier naturally had an extra layer of flesh or two on his body to begin with.... I recall reading Yank Durham state in an interview that when he first saw Joe Frazier he knew that he was gonna have to slim him down in the gym before turning him loose in the ring...... However, I agree that Frazier seemed okay at 224 for Foreman in New York........ I think Joe Frazier was indeed past his best, but NOT a slob in 1976.........

I remember back in 1986 when Tony Tubbs defended his WBA title against Tim Spoon on HBO at 244 pounds.... My dad almost shit himself when he saw Tubbs take off his robe....... I admit, everybody in the room watching was laughing at Tubbs' tub of goo mid-section........ Tim Spoon was a pinch heavy himself at 227 pounds, but not embarrassing......

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Old 01-17-2010, 09:40 AM   #10
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Default Re: Who thinks Frazier was a slob at 224 pounds for Foreman in '76?

I suppose he was still 'good', but I strongly believe that for his health's sake both Frazier and Ali should have retired after the Thrilla. Besides Joe hadn't been at an awesome level since 1971 when his prime was beaten out of him over 15 rounds with Ali.
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:01 AM   #11
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Default Re: Who thinks Frazier was a slob at 224 pounds for Foreman in '76?

Joe didn't look all that bad at 224 but obviously it wasn't his best weight. By this time his body had been pretty much broken down from all the years of training to control his weight plus all the punishment he received in his ring wars. Fighters built along Joe's lines aren't designed for longevity anyway. They tend to peak early and do a fast fade. It becomes difficult to hold the extra weight that naturally comes on as an athlete ages because there's no place to "Hide" it so to speak. Guys like Ali, Holmes and Foreman were bigger and taller and could hold extra weight on thier longer frames and limbs. It's tougher when you're under six feet tall (Tyson being one exception). Joe, like Ali should've called it a career after Manila but they didn't listen to what thier bodies were telling them.
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Old 01-17-2010, 02:46 PM   #12
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Default Re: Who thinks Frazier was a slob at 224 pounds for Foreman in '76?

Kinda' off topic but........... I thought Ali looked physically pretty decent at 230 for James Young in 1976, but skillwise Ali was off key there.... But when Ali fought Berbick in '81 at 236 pounds, Ali looked slobbish and out of synch....... The five year gap really changed Ali in a bad way........ Ali's health had gone to hell by 1980-circa.......

Joe Frazier was 229 for Cummings, and all Frazier could must up was a draw in 1981........

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Old 01-17-2010, 02:54 PM   #13
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Default Re: Who thinks Frazier was a slob at 224 pounds for Foreman in '76?

I don't think he looked too bad either but after years of these fatties overrunning the HW division, it takes some real jiggle to make me go "Heyyyy, man. That's no way to turn up."
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Old 01-17-2010, 03:32 PM   #14
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Default Re: Who thinks Frazier was a slob at 224 pounds for Foreman in '76?

It's hard to say what Frazier "could" have done after the 3rd fight with Ali in '75.

What he did do is lose to Foreman (LKOby5) in '76 and got a gift majority draw vs. Cummings in '81.

Between the 3rd fight with Ali and the Foreman rematch he did not fight for 8 1/2 months. I have no problems with the layoff. Foreman was a bad choice though.

Had Frazier focused on training after about a 2 month break (he needed it after the Thrilla in Manila) and came back vs. a lesser opponent than Foreman... things probably would have went much different for Frazier post-Manila.

If he was my fighter I would have had him come back vs. Ernie Shavers, then Ron Lyle, then Jimmy Young. If he could look good vs. these 3 guys from mid '76 thru late '77 he could fight whoever he wanted... even a rematch with Foreman. The result vs. Foreman would always be a KO loss though. Who knows though, in '77 Foreman lost to Young.

I would have like Frazier vs. Norton for sure. Maybe that could have happened in '78 had Frazier beat Shavers, Lyle, and Young while avoiding a rematch with Foreman?

Norton vs. Frazier (instead of Holmes) in 1978 for the WBC HW title? Who wins assuming Frazier had went 3-0 vs. the men mentioned above. I'd lean toward a Norton win at that point.
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Old 01-17-2010, 03:54 PM   #15
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Default Re: Who thinks Frazier was a slob at 224 pounds for Foreman in '76?

A 224 pound Frazier in '76 might have beaten Ronnie Lyle that year, but I doubt Frazier could've beaten the Norton who showed up against Ali in New York...... Norton and Frazier were about the same age, however, Frazier had a jump start ahead of Norton in the 60's and was obviously the more grizzled man physically in 1976....... Norton at 217 pounds of ripped muscle was about as good as he was gonna get when he dropped a cunt hair decision to Ali at Yankee Stadium........ And no, Frazier never beats Foreman based on styles....... Foreman is always a bad match for Joe Frazier.......

I am curious as to how much Frazier was paid for the Foreman rematch in Uniondale, New York.?.? I know Frazier made 3 million dollars for his fight with Ali in Manila, but I seriously doubt Frazier came close to that against Foreman in 1976...... Still, I am guessing that Frazier took the Foreman fight in '76 cuz the payday was worth the risk and that Frazier knew he was at the end of the road as a fighter and, wanted some money in the bank........

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